Where My Heart Leads

“Celebrate the achievements, regardless of who’s it is because we are here (at the music awards) to celebrate the works and achievements of those who deserve them.”

Keung To at the 2021/22 Chill Club Music Awards

Hong Kong’s music scene have awakened from a 20-year lull. The new vigour a much needed welcome to citizens mentally and emotionally impacted by the global pandemic and prior, by the social unrests 2019-20.

This new crop of talent sees many having started out busking. They loved sharing their music and THAT eventually opened doors for a new ecosystem, and even a revival of mainstream Cantopop.

Platform to Music Ecosystem

The Viu TV channel an integral part of this revival along with various youtube-based platforms and programs. When asked what prompted him to sign-off on a music reality contest in the station’s inaugural years on a shoestring budget, Lo Ting Fai, CEO of Viu TV said the talent he saw moved him.

Amongst the young generation there were many talented – whether in music, performance, dance – yet the city lacked a platform from which they could shine. And that was how the idea for the show as a platform to showcase talent was born.

The seasons of the music contest, Good Night Show – the King Maker （ 全民造星）was very well received thanks to plenty behind the scenes footage of how the teams came up with their performance pieces from which the audience got a good sense of the singer/performer themselves.

Some contestants went on to sign with ViuTV and others with record labels.

---

Here are five talents on my radar:

1) Jer Lau（柳應廷）, started busking and joined the music contest

I first learnt about Jer thanks to _musicplayground. Jer (short for Jeremy to avoid confusion with another Jeremy in the 12-member boy group MIRROR of which Jer is part of). The lyrics, by the one and only Wyman Wong who have bridged the divides penning songs pre, during, and now post “lull”. Wizard of words, poet of the world.

2) MC, short for Michael Cheung （張天賦）

Like Jer, MC also busked and competed at the music talent contest and was first runner up. He’s been “baptised by salty water” as in lived overseas, in Canada. MC has also recently come in first as most popular (new) male singer in a couple of awards for his achievements in the 2021. He had said in an interview that he’d be busking till 60 had he not become a professional singer. You can see he’s quite a child at heart and might enjoy his impromptu ig lives. Some of the wonkiest are on this channel linked.

What’s worth mentioning is this unspoken code of respect of those in the same industry. Amongst those who respect their profession, when they are called to play their part, such as performing with another fellow performer, they do their best regardless of whether that fellow performer is one they personally would prefer to or not. 

3) Jay Fung （馮允謙）, Singer-Songwriter

This leads me to Jay Fung who grew up in Canada and is a talented song-writer/singer. When he performs in Cantonese, his que screen shows anglicized Chinese. Aka how the Chinese words would sound like in English. 

This is a pretty good performance of Jay and MC of a song Jay wrote. MC has a Cantonese version of this song.

4) Winka Chan （陳泳伽）, new kid on the block

Winka too busked and was also a contestant of the music talent contest. Here she performs with two more established artists – Jay Fung and Joyce Cheng, both happened to be judges at Winka’s cohort.

Music Panda is a relative new online platform that has become part of the ecosystem for show-casing talents. The platform began with a music channel and a parenting channel and is owned and run by singer Leo Ku’s wife, Lorraine, someone who knows the ropes of the industry.

5) Last but not least – Gareth Tong （湯令山）, singer-song writer/producer

Gareth, a recent grad from Berklee College of Music adds an exciting dimension to the Hong Kong music scene. His work speak for itself. Gareth also produces music like that of Joyce’s above, MIRROR, and the much loved Keung To.

Here’s a medley of covers performed by Gareth and MC. Note the songs they cover are by fellow young artistes. And “Honest” is a song by Gareth’s girlfriend, Moon Tang.

Adding Gareth’s solo that illustrates what I mean by his adding a different flavour to the scene. Better to listen to the lyrics for this one than to be distracted by the MV –

Extraordinarily Romantic (note: splitting a raisin)

---

Addendum: Error and their demo of the latest breed of Mandarin

The group Error as an “Addendum.”

There is a saying in Chinese – Tall, Short, Fat, Thin – meaning: the whole shebang, a motley crew of varying shapes and sizes. 

After the music contests, ViuTV began to form a music group and sign on artists.  Singers like Jer becasme a member of 12-member group MIRROR. First, after the male-only contest, they created MIRROR. And after the female-only contest, they formed COLLAR of which Winka as a member.

However, producers of the music talent contest felt there were those who obviously were talented in their own ways but didn’t quite “fit” the look and feel of the premier boy band. So instead of leaving them by the way side, another group formed – Error. They’re a funny lot. “Fatboy” and “Dee Gor” are amazing dancers, and Po Kei sings well; the tallest, nicknamed 193 for his height, has quite a following.

Here, they illustrate the latest breed of Mandarin called Kong Pu (Hong Kong Putonghua). You have been warned: It can be grating to the ears or hillariously funny.

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by PØK1 吳保錡 (@k_p0k1)

 _

And what started as a prompt to respond to what was said: “Let’s celebrate the achievements of all those whose been awarded at the music awards.” said Keung To post award ceremony of Chill Club Awards 2022.

Start at 5:19

Keung To: No matter who wins, we should be happy. In the music scene, regardless of who wins, it’s something to be happy for. （邊一個攞獎其實我哋都應該要開心。其實呢一個樂壇無論邊一個攞獎都係一個值得開心嘅事。）

Every awardee deserves their award. Not to mention if it’s a teammate who’s been awarded. So let’s not make assumptions or spin tales. Everyone of us support (our teammates) and are happy. (Note: reporters asked if there would be hard feelings between those who got a better award than another within the group MIRROR.) （因為每個人都Deserve每一個獎項。更何況係自己嘅隊友攞獎呢。所以希望大家唔使諗太多我哋每一個人都係支持同開心嘅。）

Anson Kong (vice-captain of the group): Each year, each artist puts in a lot of effort in creating their work. Each song has to go through a lot before its release. So I totally agree with what Keung To said, that each creator, each singer who is given an award – is something for us all to celebrate and to be happy for. Not just awards for MIRROR or members of our group. （每一年每一個音樂人做嘅每一個作品都用咗好多心機去做。每一首歌都係經歷咗好多嘢先出到嚟。所以我覺得啊羌講得好啱嘅就係每一個音樂人，每一個在場嘅歌手攞獎都係好值得開心嘅，除咗我哋之外。)

Keung To: I would not ask or rally my fans to go out and vote for MIRROR or whomever specific. As long as everyone votes for what they like, that’s cool. If the awards go only to MIRROR or members of MIRROR year on year, I’d like to believe that we’ve not grown. I don’t reckon it’s healthy. I wouldn’t want it to be so. （我唔會同fans講要投MIRROR或者邊個。總之每一個市民投自己鍾意嘅嘢。如果每一年都係MIRROR 或者我哋solo歌手攞獎代表我哋樂壇沒有進步過。我唔需要話每一年都係我哋。)

I would hope that in the following years, there would be more and more talent in the industry, that are better, and greater than us.（我甚至希望我哋以後每一年有俾我哋更加厲害嘅人出現。）

I hope that each Hong Kong person can support us musicians regardless of whom you like or whom you do not like. At least you’re supporting talent in Hong Kong. Hopefully our music can make you proud of Asia.（我希望我哋每一位香港嘅人都可以支持我哋每一位歌手無論你鍾意嗰一個，唔鍾意嗰一個但起碼鍾意我哋香港呢一個地方嘅歌手。希望我哋嘅Music能令大家能夠 Proud of Asia. ）

.

Cover image from MIRROR’s instagram. A still from a campaign with Samsung HK.

Where My Heart Leads – Food for thought:

• In celebrating the wins and achievements, we can together build an ecosystem that thrives – a more vibrant industry, city, world ….
• What are you celebrating today?

The conversation continues from where it left off. After recognising the best thing she could do was to let the NGO she founded go by putting a new structure in place, Myriam steps on a new path of sharing what is most dear to her heart. We (Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads and Myriam Bartu) chat about tips when it comes to meditation, what Yoga Nidra is and life.

I realised the impact of meditation was so powerful for me, I felt this is what I want to share personally, because it’s what had the greatest effect on me. 

Myriam Bartu

1. Desires
2. Dipping into peace
3. Heart meditation resolving anxiety
4. What is yoga nidra and sound healing
5. Awareness, an empowering place to be
6. A six week Yoga Nidra Journey
7. In our lives we need a balance of both
8. Let go
9. Wisdom eternal
10. Postscript: The Rebel

1. Desires

Myriam Bartu: For me when I started meditating, one of the first things that happened is that I found I had less desires, I think I genuinely have not had a lot of desires for consumption compared to people around me. But I had even less, I felt more confident about not buying anything new.

So I was like, I’m only going to get secondhand clothes, as much as I can, my son for the first 10 years of his life, we pretty much only bought second hand clothes and toys for him and tried not to have anything new. And still today, we try as much as possible, even though he’s becoming a teenager. At home, we all try not to buy any new items, no new furniture, as far as possible. It’s just the desire to buy new stuff kind of disappeared. 

Something I think that’s never been very strong in me, I’ve never had much desire for stuff. But meditating really helped me build more confidence and realise that this is all not necessary, it’s causing overconsumption, it’s causing many environmental problems and not bringing us closer to happiness. 

So I think that’s why I wanted to share meditation to help people come back to what’s important to them. It’s not about my values, it’s just about coming back to what’s important to you. For me, it was, reducing consumption is one, for others, it can be something else.

When we don’t have so much inner pain, and desires, then budgeting is kind of secondary, because you just don’t have this problem with overconsumption. 

At Enrich, we did impact evaluations with participants that had attended our workshops. Several asked for help with depression and anxiety. 

This resonated with me, because I shared this struggle with anxiety. Anxiety really impacted my life and in a way that made my personal relationships hard, my work hard. Meditation helped me reduce anxiety and my personal relationships became easier.

I realised the impact of meditation was so powerful for me, I felt this is what I want to share personally, because it’s what had the greatest effect on me. 

Of course, there’s a place for all kinds of workshops and budgeting will always be something that’s very important to certain groups. But I think it needs to be matched with inside work as well and actually Enrich is doing more now for wellness as well because there’s also this realisation. Especially during Covid, there’s been so much mental health struggle. Mental health is actually the number one issue for most communities in Hong Kong right now.

2. Dipping into peace

How many years have you been teaching meditation, yoga nidra now?

Actually, I started a little bit before I even did my teacher training just for friends and some small groups. I did my first teacher training in 2016, so that’s when I started teaching meditation. I began with meditation, and then the year after, yoga nidra. (Nidra in Sanskrit means sleep.)

For me personally, meditation has been the most helpful, but yoga nidra is so much more accessible. 

It’s not easy, particularly today in Hong Kong to get people to sit and meditate. And they often have this perception that they can’t. And especially if they’re coming from work, I’m generally getting people coming from a workday. 

Yoga nidra is much more accessible, you just lie down, and you don’t need to do anything, you can even sleep and you still get the benefits. It’s the first entry point. So generally, the first thing I share is yoga nidra. People are so exhausted, and they need help with sleep. 

Yoga nidra everyone can practise. 

You can’t do it wrong. 

You just lie down. 

And you see the change. You know, people come in stressed, anxious, they come in angry sometimes. You feel their tense energy and then after we practise yoga nidra, they are transformed.

At the end, it just feels like we’ve got a room of sleeping babies!  The energy shift is so beautifully strong. 

That I always feel at the end – Wow! 

People come back to this place of peace. Sound healing also very powerful for this. 

The combination of sound healing and yoga nidra just makes it much easier come back to peace. 

Those are my first tools, singing bowls, and yoga nidra. 

3. Heart meditation resolving anxiety

Once people have been coming to some sessions, I then go into heart meditation. 

For me, what helped me most is actually loving kindness meditation, heart opening.

That was the personal practice that most helped to resolve my anxiety. And it is one I share as well. 

But not necessarily when people first arrived. Some people are not ready for it. It really depends. I get some people who can just sit there and it feels like they’ve been doing it all their life, maybe they’ve been doing it in previous lives.

Loving Kindness is a very beautiful practice I’d like to share more. But I think the first thing people need today in Hong Kong especially is to relax.

4. What is yoga nidra and sound healing

What is yoga nidra in your words? And sound healing?

Yoga nidra is really about dropping from the headspace to the heart. 

You can say sound healing is the same. It’s about helping you come back to that peace within. 

Sound healing – It’s the vibrations of the bowls that come to places within you that you can’t reach otherwise, bringing you to this deep, deep relaxation. The singing bowls are really quite magical. 

But actually I share yoga nidra more because it’s more empowering I feel. With yoga nidra you can practise yourself with a recording. Sound healing you need to come in person. A lot of my work is also online on Zoom, or in bigger groups where it’s not so easy to bring singing bowls. So if you can access singing bowls, it’s very beautiful and can be very deep and very therapeutic. But it’s not necessary. 

Yoga nidra on its own works well. You might need a few more sessions compared to singing bowls to get to that place of peace but it’s very restorative. And the beautiful thing with yoga nidra is you practise on your own. 

Listen to a recording in bed or on a yoga mat, on a sofa, you can even practise in quarantine. You can practise anywhere really, you just need a time when you’re not disturbed. You can do it in the middle of the night.

I share recordings with yoga nidra and encourage people to use the recordings in their own time. Yoga nidra is a deep relaxation. The practice stems from yoga, it’s a part of yoga, but it’s the part of yoga that’s actually been relatively neglected compared to physical yoga at least in Hong Kong. 

People know Yoga as the physical asanas, but actually Yoga nidra is a very powerful yogic practice that can bring a very deep peace and relaxation such that the body heals itself. 

Whether you’re using sound healing or yoga nidra really you’re bringing your body to a deeper brainwave state, to a place of relaxation. Your heartbeat slows, and your blood pressure regulates. And your body also releases hormones, like serotonin or melatonin that produces relaxation in the body so that the body naturally gets to a state where it heals itself.

Actually, everything you need you have within you to heal. You’re just bringing your body to a place where self-healing is possible, and happens with ease. 

Everything you need you have within you to heal.
So it’s just bringing your body to a place where self healing is possible, and happens with ease.

Myriam Bartu

Meditation is also a physical restoration. When I began practising mindfulness, the first thing that changed was actually my digestion, which is not what I expected. 

With both yoga nidra and sound healing, you get physical benefits, and of course, mental and emotional benefits. 

5. Awareness, an empowering place to be

Yoga nidra and sound healing help us take distance from the intensity of our emotions and thoughts. Getting us to realise that we are actually Awareness. We’re beyond all that – we’re not our thoughts, we’re not our emotions, we’re not our body, we’re the unchanging awareness that is aware of all this. 

When you come to that space. In sound healing, you go deep very quickly, and maybe you’re not as aware. 

With yoga nidra, you stay more aware of being that presence, this peaceful presence that observes all these experiences that come and go. 

It’s a very empowering place to be because you realise that whatever happens in life, your stress, thoughts and emotions are not who you truly are, you are the observer of all this, you can come back to a deep peace that’s always present no matter what. And even when life throws challenges, it’s always possible to some extent, to come back, and it’s empowering to know that you have this deep peace within. This, this greater awareness. So that’s what I like to share, that’s what yoga nidra is.

Karen: Very beautiful. And it seems like total clarity.

Myriam: Clarity. Yeah, (and knowing…)

M: Connecting to yourself, you can see this as clarity in the sense that it’s connecting to who you are, under all the noise of the world.

6. A Nidra Journey

Do you currently teach people these practices regularly where they progress?

Yes, I do both. I have drop-in sessions where people can just come. 

And I have A Nidra Journey, which is six sessions. 

So we first begin with body sensing. And then we go into breath, awareness, then noticing emotions, and being aware of my emotions, thoughts, and then heart energy. 

Then we come to sensing ourselves as pure awareness. 

Actually any yoga nidra practice will take you through all this, this is really going through the koshas in yogic terms these layers, these sheaves we have. 

I like to bring people on a journey where they also consciously think about each level that we have, so that we can observe. So much of the time the problem is we’re not even aware about our emotions, or even our thoughts, and we believe them. But when we can take time to observe, and notice, okay, this is anxiety, I feel it, where do I feel it? Be aware where in the body, we feel it? How does it feel? What is the name of the emotion we feel? What’s the intensity? 

I encourage people to join several sessions, and even if they don’t come in person, really what I want is for people to practise. 

We also do the Nidra Journey on WhatsApp. Even if participants are not able to come in person, they can still practise. 

In the Nidra Journey, I share a different nidra every week and encourage participants to practise daily. And those who have had the most profound positive benefits, are those who’ve had a regular personal practice, it doesn’t matter so much whether they come in person to my sessions, what matters is that they practise. 

Sometimes a WhatsApp group is enough just to encourage people to practise. Others need to come in person. A lot of people feel they need to come in person because they’re not motivated, or they don’t have the discipline, or the space in their life to practise themselves. So that really depends, particularly people who are working full time and have families and kids at home, then it’s helpful to come in person.

7. In our lives we need a balance of both

Is there anything related to the masculine and feminine energy in terms of … How should I put it. I feel like the world is in the place that it is because in general, people are quite out with that balance. And also, perhaps, again, not in touch with themselves, therefore, they’re out of balance. 

And for sure in developed countries, there’s a lot of, I would say, kind of aggression, or like, kind of masculine energy, maybe that’s too general a term. The reason I’m throwing it out is because I feel like I have friends around me where they feel like they are not in touch with their feminine side. Because they’ve grown up, been trained to be, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, even though they’re female in person, but they need to be in control because that’s the mode of operation. So I wonder, in the realm of what you do now, do you see that in the people that you work with? If you have any thoughts on that.

Myriam: Well, it’s absolutely feminine energies in yogic terms. The relaxation is the Ida, it is the feminine, our feminine side, whereas the Pingala is the active, masculine side. 

So it’s funny that the yoga that we generally know of is just exercise. 

Generally it is more of the masculine energy, which is why it’s very important to have yoga nidra and relaxation in yoga. 

There are some postures that are more relaxing in yoga, but you do need to have a balance. Whether it’s in yoga, or in your life otherwise. 

My nidra teacher Uma (Dinsmore-Tuli) talks about Nidra Shakti being a feminine energy. So, that certainly is what’s missing. Feminine or masculine, in yogic terms, you call it that way. The masculine energy is the doing and the feminine energy is considered to be the more reflective, relaxing energy.

Yes, absolutely. That’s what Hong Kong needs. That’s what we need in the world, right now we have too much action, we need more reflection, more relaxation, more healing, more quiet time. And that’s what I am passionate about sharing. 

At the same time, we need Balance, I think I went through a period where personally I was doing yoga nidra and sound healing, perhaps too much. Doing more energising yoga practices helped me uplift my energy.

For some people potentially, especially introverts and people with depression, it’s especially important to have uplifting practices as well.

(Karen : Bring out the gong!) Yes or something more energetic. 

Yes, like running, sports, yoga that’s physical, or it could be something else. In our lives, we do need to have a balance of both. But generally, right now in our world, there is not enough relaxation, not enough feminine energy and too much overdoing. Yes. And so that’s why yoga nidra is very needed right now, and sound healing.

And then the meditation practice that you teach, or that kind of brought you to the aha moment or like to recognise the root of your anxiety. What was that experience like? 

How would you suggest your students approach meditation?

I think being open really with what’s there. 

A lot of people say they can’t meditate. 

I don’t think that’s ever true. 

I don’t think anyone can’t meditate. 

But I do see that people that have very busy minds find that they keep getting thoughts. 

But the fact that you keep having thoughts doesn’t mean you can’t meditate. It just means you will be constantly bringing your thoughts back to your breath, or to whatever focus point you’ve chosen. 

For me, it was mindfulness initially in the MBSR, that brought me back to this deep peace and body scans, which are a big component of yoga nidra. And loving kindness; already in the MBSR we practised some loving kindness meditation. 

I was very drawn to imagining a light in your heart. 

For me, loving kindness is the most powerful practice. 

Because when we come back to our heart, we dissolve so much of the problems that have been created in our mind. So that’s my suggestion actually, is to come back to the heart. 

How you do that, and when are you ready, in what/where you’re ready to do that differs a lot. 

Some people will come for the first time, and they will just rest in the heart space and send out love energy. And it’s just natural, just like they’ve been doing it all their life, or maybe in previous lives. 

For others, months and months of practice. They’re not comfortable resting in that space, and something else will resonate. Or they can practise in a more subtle way. 

Everyone’s wired very differently, and I really don’t believe there’s one practice that works for everyone. 

---

“For me, loving kindness is the most powerful practice. Because when we come back to our heart, we dissolve so much of the problems that we have been creating in our mind.

— Myriam Bartu, Bathing in Love

---

8. Let go

So I share what worked for me; I have a lot of people with anxiety come, and sleep issues. Yoga Nidra is definitely helpful. Health issues as well. And who isn’t anxious to some extent, in 2021, right, with everything we’ve been through… Frustrations, people in quarantine as well. 

I think what I’d share is to find a practice that works for you and let go of expectations. 

One of the hardest times is the second time you do a practice, particularly in yoga nidra because often the first time people have this blissful experience, and then they come back and they want to go back to that. 

With people coming for the second time, I give them a warning, Be open to whatever you experience, whatever you experience is right for you. Because if you want to go back to that first time, it’s not going to happen. Every practice is different.

Also if you’ve been meditating for some time, and then you suddenly find you’re stuck, maybe you can try a different practice or try something else and then come back. It’s never going to be the same.

You listen to the same recording even – two times, three times, as many times you listen to it; you get as many different experiences of it. So you need to let go of the striving.

(Karen: And just be.) Yeah, just be open to what is. Just be – just be with what is.

9. Wisdom eternal

You said you love the concept of Where My Heart Leads because that so well describes the way many things are created. So certainly for you, your journey kind of followed your heart and how were you able to do so?

I think one obvious thing is not having pressure to do anything for financial gain. Otherwise that would have been another dimension. Partly because I’m trying to live only with secondhand and not buying new and I have this ethos of reducing consumption. And of course mainly because my husband is in the financial industry and is providing what I feel is more than what we need. 

I have never in my work life made earning money a target, an aim.

It’s not all easy either not having that because having that, because having money as a way of measuring success also gives you something to work for.

But not having that means sometimes it has put me in a place where I felt quite lost, like, what do I do? Money doesn’t motivate me. So what do I do? Well, then I listen to my heart, that’s what’s left. Then I need to do what resonates. And serve. Try to help people. That’s what makes sense.

So I think everybody listens to their heart, but when you don’t need to be providing financially, then you have to listen, if you want to lead a meaningful life. That’s all that’s left. 

So that’s, I think, why as well.

I mean, I did early on, before we were married. But increasingly, through meditation as well, I became more connected to what’s important for me personally, I think. 

I’ve been very, very privileged, I feel also with great privilege comes great responsibility. So I have, I feel a responsibility to share, and to share, especially with people who have less access to resources.

And I feel right now, everybody needs support with mental health, we all need time to pause, time to connect back, time to relax, to restore. And since there are many groups that have very little time and few resources, I try especially to reach out to them. 

But also I’ve come to the point where I also know that I can’t choose who I work with entirely. And whoever comes is who resonates with what I offer. Sometimes those I can help or help the most are not those who I am necessarily seeking to help. So I’m trying to let go a bit of choosing who I work with.

And just actually (Karen: Open the door wider) Yeah! I think some of those that I’ve met who’ve benefited most actually are more like me in some ways, that’s why they resonate with what I share. Because I can only share from my own experience. I tend to, I think, attract people who in some ways have something similar to me with their mental health or emotional life.

---

Postscript: The Rebel

Karen (K): I’m a little bit curious about your year backpacking, where you said, like, quite early on, as a young person, you already felt that the kind of the regimented ways of things is quite confining, and therefore you were seeking places or communities that don’t have that.

So now in retrospect, where do you see the two come together? Like the structure, the regimenting and the freedom. How do the two work hand in hand or do they work hand in hand?

Myriam (M): I think we need a lot less rules and structure than what we have, and I tend to rebel against it. At the same time as a parent, I’m the one imposing it! So, I do see that. And I get frustrated when my son’s completely up in the air. 

I remember early on. One thing that was funny was when I was choosing universities at 17, I went around travelling in England. And my mom was always very strict, I felt, you know, you have to clean. Every time we have guests, you change the bedsheets, you clean the room, you have to … We had guests over a lot so we spent a lot of time cleaning sheets that had been barely used. I felt frustrated by that.

When I was visiting universities, at one university, the students were responsible for hosting me because I was an international student. I was coming from France to visit them in England. So I was going to spend the night and they put me in a bed where the bed sheets hadn’t been changed. There was another student staying there before me. And I was so excited by that!

I chose that university because I got to sleep in a bed that had used sheets. I just felt like that’s liberation. It made no sense to me to wash the bedsheet when someone slept just one night. I felt such a sense of liberation!

That’s actually how I chose that University. Eventually I only stayed in that university one year because I didn’t connect with the lifestyle of the students there, especially the drinking and the partying. I went to London afterwards.

But it was just an example of how stifled I felt by the rules we had at home and it’s not excessive by most people’s standards, changing the sheets between users is not excessive, but to me it was excessive. 

And so the year I was travelling, I had my own sleeping bag but you couldn’t really wash very well. We stayed in simple places, dormitories, sleeping on the floor of railway stations, we slept in monasteries where we could stay for free. We stayed in an ashram where we did yoga. I just loved the idea that you could sleep in a dormitory with people you didn’t know where you would just sleep on a simple bed on a mattress on the floor.

Another highlight for me when I was travelling was the Camel Safari we did in the Rajasthani desert in India. We had just one man who took us on his camel and my friend and I each had a camel.

We rode through the desert for a few days, and he just had a sack of vegetables, and some water. Twice a day, we would stop in the desert. And he would peel the vegetables and we would help him because it was just us with him. Peel the vegetables, cook them in some water. And then hand-make chapatis, just with our hands and they were very, very rough and cooked them on the fire.

It was this liberation that you could cook just with your hands and a little metal pot and nothing else. No electricity, and just eat with your hands. And of course, we couldn’t wash your hands. You didn’t need all these things. You know, it’s so simple. And when I came back to France to see my family, that’s what I wanted to share with them.

And so to share my experience, I actually got my parents and my brothers to sit in the garage. Because I just love sitting on the floor. At home, we always had to have a proper table and set the table and we had to set the table, and that would just drive me crazy.

So I brought them to the garage. I put a mat on the floor, the cold garage floor in France, and I made this Camel Safari dinner with just a little stove, a camping stove, carrots and potatoes chopped just with my pen knife and some water we boiled in the garage, and I made them eat it all sitting on the floor, I still have this photo.

And for me that was – that’s happiness! Happiness is simplicity! And I think I just felt so misunderstood growing up with all these needs imposed on me. And that’s one example there’s many others.

So for me, liberation is liberation from this complicated way of living. That’s why I love camping and being alone, it’s just simple.

Of course with age, I also enjoy comfort and security more. But I think liberation from what is perceived as necessary is something that really resonated with me.

K: Do you feel that you’ve freed yourself and liberated yourself pretty early on?

M: Yeah, I think also…

K: You definitely gave your clothes away.

M: Yeah, and I don’t try to dress pretty, I never did the whole makeup and dressing up thing I never resonated with that. Now I can live a life where I don’t ever have to do that. I stopped trying that quite soon. My partner is not into all that. And he’s also from a different culture where a lot of the rules… He’s from Taiwan, right? A lot of the rules that were important in my home culture are not in his. Like his family has other things that are important, but not the same things. And I thought that was liberating as well to me that some of the things that were pushed on me as a child were not important in his family, like table manners are different in different countries.

K: But when you were in the garage with your family, you’re like, this is happiness and they’re like, this is such a cold floor! My butt is hurting. 

M: Exactly. My brothers were really angry. To my parents they were like, why are you letting her do this to us?

K: It’s in a way it’s not only the simplicity of material possessions, it’s also the simplicity between people, right? Something that came up in a conversation yesterday was that, it seems like there’s just less trust in society for some reason. Lawyers and long legal documents and such have become like more than norm or like disclaimers and stuff. Versus before it’s like, handshake and that’s done kind of thing.

M: For sure. That’s something that changed as well.

I think with practice, I become more trusting with my meditation, in particular, the loving kindness practice, and able to connect better to people I do things with.

Now I co-organise retreats with others and in some cases we hardly meet. We can arrange things in just just a few messages. We trust that once we’ve worked together, we trust each other, we can run an event with minimal organisation, because we just flow and we trust that we both know what makes sense. 

Whereas before, I used to over-prepare. I’ve changed the way I prepare things. Before, if I were to give a talk or have an event, I would really prepare the content of the talk or the event. Now I tend to just prepare myself, as long as I’ve meditated, and I’m well, I feel I can flow with whatever. (Wow)

I don’t need to over prepare my sessions or my events or workshops or retreats. As long as I’m well. Then I kind of channel, I don’t know if I use the word channel, but I’m connected to myself and I can share from a place of peace and wisdom.

Whereas before, I would do a lot of notes preparation. But you see, even if you have prepared a very good speech or a very good session, if I feel I’m not well, if I’m not calm myself, I’m not going to deliver very well.

You need both – I need to prepare the content and prepare myself, but if I have to choose if I have to choose just one, I’ll prioritise preparing myself, and then free flow, rather than over preparing the content.

I never read in my sessions. My meditations are never scripted. I don’t read them. That’s how I was taught to lead also, both in India and with my yoga nidra teachers in England. What we were taught was very much – empower yourself by connecting to yourself, practise, have your own strong self practice, and then just lead from the wisdom of your heart and the peace of your heart.

Rather than using the mind, I use my heart more than my mind when I teach. I feel that works better.

---

K: And how have you ‘reconciled’ you being kind of the odd one out in the family?

M: Well in some ways I’m not the odd one out because my whole family has a history of alternative healing. My mom’s an osteopath. She’s done acupuncture. She’s done a lot of alternative healing practices. And my brother also. One is an osteopath, and the other is a life coach. So a family of healers. In that sense, I have been continuing. In fact, when I went to share meditation, I felt closer to my mom because it’s closer to what she’s been doing. My family has also evolved in that way. They’re also quite environmentally conscious. And also avoid buying things new.

K: Must be your camping experience.

M: I think it was their own journey!

In Goa, my parents had their own experiences as well, their own realisations –  I wouldn’t take credit for that. I think it’s also the teenage years I was rebelling because I felt different. Maybe I wasn’t actually that different.

---

“I wanted to share meditation to help people come back to what’s important to them. And it’s not about my values, it’s just about coming back to what’s important to you.”

— Myriam Bartu

---

All images are from Myriam Bartu unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 5 October, 2021 at Singing Bowl Zentral, Hong Kong.

Discover Myriam Bartu’s website and her guided recordings on her website BathinginLove.com and/or her page on the YogaNidraNetwork.

* * *

“With great privilege comes great responsibility.” What comes to mind?

Related:

There’s No Stopping when it’s a Calling: Kimberly Ashton

It left a great impression on me hearing my friend Desi share her experience volunteering with Enrich, which has transformed countless lives since its inception over a decade ago.

To my surprise, at our first chat, Myriam, co-founder of Enrich shared how whilst budgeting was a useful skill/tool, there is something more significant she wishes to tackle/support/heal. And that – is where her heart led …

I really feel that if more of us took time regularly to come back to this peace within us, we wouldn’t have so many problems in our world, we’d be able to just ride with more ease, and life wouldn’t have to be this complicated. So that’s where I am now. 

Myriam Bartu

1. Development work: starting in East London
2. China Beckons: Yunan, Tibet, and Qinghai
3. Enrich – Beginning transforming lives
4. Mental health challenges
5. Inflection point – Best thing I could have done was to let it go!
6. Where my (Myriam’s) heart lands
7. Aha moments
8. Team zest paving way forward
9. Addressing underlying pain

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads

Where did it all begin? Where did you grow up?

Myriam Bartu: So I grew up mostly in Singapore. My father was covering the whole of Southeast Asia, he was foreign correspondent for a Swiss newspaper. So we left Switzerland when I was two. Lived briefly in London, and then Singapore. And while living in Singapore, we travelled extensively all over Southeast Asia. And we spent several Christmases in the Philippines. I remember that as a young child.

I think I was very emotionally impacted by poverty or all the inequality, or indifferent access to resources. And it’s something that I think just struck me already as a young child. I remember an incident where I befriended a girl who was selling shells on the beach. 

Just got to know her and I remember that …  I’m not exactly sure what happened, but I came home with just my underwear. I came back to the hotel in just my underwear once. And my mom said, what happened? And I said I gave my clothes away because she doesn’t have enough clothes. I don’t know what or how I came to realise that she had very little, but I naturally felt the need to give what I had. It must have hurt me somehow to see this – this imbalance – already very young.

I left Singapore when I was 14. And when I was 18, I took a year off when I finished school. I took a year off travelling around Asia, particularly India, Nepal, Southeast Asia.

I volunteered in a school in Nepal, teaching English in a village. And then just backpacked with a friend who has also grown up together in Singapore. And for me, that year was all about living with as little as possible. That was very important to me. So in India, we were living on $5 a day. We were staying in monasteries, railway stations, places where we could stay for free, or very little. And I don’t know why I had this strong desire to experience life with more simplicity and less resources.

It’s just something that resonated with me. I grew up with quite a privileged family, at least privilege in comparison to what I was seeing when travelling. An International School and expatriate family in Singapore.

And so I had this urge to go back to Asia and to experience life. Living without so many rules and so much need. I think I felt a bit suffocated and stifled by some of the expectations at home or of how you have to lay things out properly. I hated having to buy stuff for Christmas, Christmas gifts and all this consumption. So that quite early on was something; I was drawn to living a more simple life.

The year I spent backpacking, I was so proud that for a whole year, it was 10 months that I was travelling with just the backpack. The clothes I had on me, and my home was my backpack. And I had my sleeping bag in there and we would sleep where we could and spend very little money.

I worked in a supermarket for a couple of months in Switzerland and that was enough to keep me going for 10 months. And so by the time I started university, I was a bit disconnected from my peers.

Although quite a few, I went to study in the UK, who had gap years. But I found the first year of uni hard and then transferred to London. SOAS was easier because they were all the students and more international students and I was living in a city. When I finished university I was drawn to development work. Actually I wanted to do development studies. My father didn’t agree. So I ended up reading history and Chinese.

But my first job, the first thing I wanted to do was just to contribute to people who were living a simpler life or on a lower income. I think it was both a desire to help, and also this attraction to another way of doing things with less rules and, and less formalities. And I guess I found some liberation in not having to deal with all this “stuff.” All these conventions, and so called needs, which I felt were not needs.

1. Development Work: Starting in East London

So my first job was in London, in East London, mainly with ethnic minorities, lower income women, and some refugees. We’re doing microcredit. But really, it was a women’s support group, where we were encouraging women to start a business, and then meeting weekly with them, having them support each other. We’d give them a loan of 500 pounds, which is very little money to start a business right, in London. Yeah, a lot of them didn’t even want the money. So it wasn’t really about the loan, it was more about the support, the training, the monthly gathering of weekly groups. So I did that and facilitated these groups of women. Again, I was really struck by what happened in their lives, the connection between poverty and what happens.

I remember making a list of all the stories I had heard, you know, this lady whose son got shot, this one has medical issues, this one has children with disabilities. All these incredible life stories and this resilience these women showed, despite all this, I think I was quite amazed by them. And also sometimes quite overwhelmed. And I realised quickly that probably I wasn’t bringing them anything. I was so young, they were older and much more experienced, it was more me learning about how they were navigating life in such a different way than the worlds I had seen closer to my own family. 

2. China Beckons: Yunan, Tibet and Qinghai

And then my husband, back then was my boyfriend, he transferred to Hong Kong. I didn’t want to come to Hong Kong, but I wanted to go to China. I had this idea that I had studied Chinese and that I wanted to go to China. So I kind of left my suitcase in Hong Kong and went straight to China. And on the way I had done a course on microcredit in the US. So I got some short term consulting work. And for a couple of years, I did a combination of volunteering and consulting in China for different NGOs.

I was really drawn to the place, the rural areas of China, to the peoples, again, a lot of ethnic minorities I was working with both in Yunan and Tibetan areas, and Qing Hai. Again, this simple living – it amazes me how human beings can survive with so little, it just puts into perspective our city and its perceived needs.

So in China I was really drawn to the place, the people and the charities trying to figure out what’s this development work? What are people really doing? What works, what doesn’t. I loved seeing the positive connections between the NGO groups and the beneficiaries. And I was really drawn to a more participatory form of support where we really listen to the people, the villagers and see how we can support them and learn from them and how the most powerful projects involve, and were actually locally–led by the villagers and how actually they have so much wisdom. 

So I was supposedly “training” on microcredit, and women’s support, but really I was learning from how they were doing things. So I was there for a couple of years, and then my husband stayed in Hong Kong and I had to choose between the work of my life and the love of my life. I decided to come back to Hong Kong because it was at the point where otherwise the relationship wouldn’t have survived. 

3. Enrich – Beginning transforming lives

And when I came here, I was drawn to migrants, partly because I spoke English, that’s a group I resonated with. I was working in Mandarin in China, but I don’t speak Cantonese. And I just felt though, that wasn’t gonna replicate. I mean, there were enough services available in Cantonese, compared to those available to non Cantonese speakers. So I felt that it made more sense for me to work with English speakers because not much available for them, especially migrants – so domestic workers, Indonesians, Filipinos. And so I freelanced with organisations supporting them.

And I didn’t find one that I was able to completely devote myself to, because what I wanted to do – to empower them, no organisation could put resources and time into. So that’s how I decided to create my own, and particularly I had a friend who was doing training on financial literacy with migrants. And so we collaborated and created a program with both empowerment and financial literacy and that’s how Enrich was born. I co-created that for a few years. And then I became a mom. And I was quite a tense person at that time growing Enrich. To the point that I think I didn’t do things in a very effective way sometimes because I was, I was becoming very anxious.

4. Mental health challenges

For me, I realised my mental health was struggling actually.

When my son was a toddler and a preschooler. And so I think also with growing Enrich, I felt torn – although I loved our team, and we were a group of volunteers doing what we’re passionate about.

But then there was this need to become a more professional organisation to pay staff so that they could keep doing this work. And so I was kind of forced to grow Enrich more quickly than I was comfortable to. And I was doing need to do things I wasn’t very comfortable doing, like fundraising, governance, I had a whole – a lot of my focus was on governance and fundraising because by that point, I was chair of the board, which was a very stifling position to be in, I was much happier being a trainer and working directly with the participants.

As the founder, I kind of grew with the organisation and maybe grew more slowly than the organisation. The organisation needed to grow. I was pushed into something I wasn’t entirely comfortable with. And around that time – being in this difficult role at Enrich and being a new mom, I just realised my anxiety was inhibiting my ability to grow Enrich. I wanted to keep it small, so I can manage it. I struggled to manage growth. 

5. Inflection point – Best thing I could have done was to let go!

So I went through this period when I was struggling with Enrich and with my mental health. And that’s when I discovered the MBSR – Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program, and I did this meditation program. I started meditating regularly. And I just went, Wow, this is what I’ve been looking for. I just found this peace. Everything else was less important when I found that peace within me and I went, this is what I want to share. It was much deeper than anything else I was doing. 

And at that point, I had this aha moment where I was like, I just need to grow Enrich so I can let it go. And that became my vision. I need to grow it so I can let it go. 

Then I had more energy, to do the governance, do the fundraising, to get a board together. to have to get a budget so we can pay staff. All I really needed to do was to pay a fundraiser, and it took me a while to realise that. To pay a fundraiser, we actually personally put donated money to hire a fundraiser. 

Once Enrich had a fundraiser, the fundraiser was able to do the fundraising, to pay for a manager and actually then it kind of happened. It evolved on its own and I was able to step back. I realised that a lot of what Enrich needed was done much better by others, particularly the governance, the fundraising, the management and that wasn’t where I wanted to shine. 

And so we grew Enrich and a beautiful team came, and they did a great job with communications, design, and there was a team for programs and it just flowed at that point and now a new Enrich has grown. The best thing I could have done was to let it go because the team who took it on grew it with so much more professionalism and passion! 

6. Where my (Myriam’s) heart lands

So Enrich took its path. I still stay connected always, and I’m still lovingly connected to the people running it. And I support them. 

For me, I just wanted to share this peace. That’s when you know Where My Heart Lands, I think that it really landed there. And so as I was growing and reducing my involvement in Enrich, so this was in 2015 I did the MBSR. 

2016 – I did my first meditation teacher training. I went to India, my parents were living in Goa, (Your parents were living in Goa!) This was lucky – for five years they lived in Goa so we went there four times over Christmas. I just arrived in Goa, brought my son to my parents place and went off. The first year I did a retreat; the second year, I did a meditation teacher training; the third year, a yoga nidra teacher training; the fourth year a sound healing training.

In summers, I was also able to leave my son with my parents and do more teacher trainings in Europe. So I did all my teacher training outside Hong Kong, because they were residential, I was able to do that leaving my son with my parents. 

Opportunities arose where I was in Europe over the summer and in Goa in winter. In Hong Kong, I started teaching initially in my living room, leading meditations, and then gradually in studios. 

The last two years having been in Hong Kong, and not travelling, I did a yoga teacher training here with Sudevi and a further sound healing training with Mona Choi. Recently, I’ve gone into leading retreats because I feel this is now the time for people to find that peace. Sometimes just coming for an hour of yoga nidra is not enough. It’s very difficult on a busy day to just take an hour away to practice. Yoga Nidra takes us to such a deep place that it can be too much of a contrast to the rest of the day. 

By doing a retreat, it gives you that space to find that peace. Ultimately I’m still trying to help people find that peace within them. So now these last few months, my focus has been on creating retreat spaces, one day, two days or three days, to find that peace. 

I really feel that if more of us took time regularly to come back to this peace within us, we wouldn’t have so many problems in our world. We’d be able to just ride with more ease, and life wouldn’t have to be this complicated. So that’s, I guess, what and where I am now. That’s a long story.

7. Aha moments

Going back to like that aha moment that you realised that vision you had for Enrich, can you talk a little bit about that?

Myriam: I think there were several moments. I remember once LenLen, one of our co-founders asked me, Why are you afraid of growth? You know, What is your fear of growth? That was definitely an aha moment where I was like why am I afraid of growth? I realised it was just me personally I felt I couldn’t cope with a large organisation.

I enjoyed us all being on the same boat, being a team like we were a cooperative. For the first five years really we were all a team of volunteers doing this with no structure. I didn’t like the idea of a hierarchy and if you’re going to have a professional organisation, you need to have a hierarchy if you’re going to have anyone paid because you need to have a board that’s unpaid and then staff members that are paid. And I was uncomfortable with that. I wanted everyone to be equal and no hierarchy. I didn’t want titles.

First we were just a group of friends creating Enrich. And that worked to some extent – I mean it’s actually quite incredible how for five years we did that with almost no budget. We had a budget of less than HKD100,000 a year in the first few years. But of course, what we could do was limited, we needed staff it was only fair to pay people for the work they were doing so that we could grow. 

So how have things changed? Partly it was in the organisation, we had some amazing people I was working with. And I felt, it’s only fair for them to be paid to do this, rather than – The model we had is that everybody had full time jobs, paid work. We were doing this as extra. But everyone was saying – we’d rather do this as our main job, but Enrich is not paying anyone so … 

That was another aha moment when we had an away day. Everyone was saying, actually, we would like Enrich to be our main work. Why is it that we’re just doing this on the weekends? So that was one – this passion from the team. They wanted Enrich to grow, the team wanted it. 

8. Team zest paving way forward for growth

So their wanting to see this growth helped you?

Yes. I was holding everyone back.

Initially, I was the coordinator, then I was the Executive Director, and then I was the chair of the board. I felt I always had to keep being the leader. Perhaps because I was the only founder in Hong Kong for most of the time; I took that on myself. That wasn’t necessary, I could have realised earlier that those roles could have been better distributed. But it just naturally flowed that I took on that responsibility. So I think that aha moment was realising  – Hold on, I don’t need to do this. Enrich can grow, I don’t need to stop it. It can grow without me being the one doing it. It took me a while to realise that, because I always felt that because it’s not paid, who’s going to take on all this work without pay?

Until I realised, we could change the model. So that leading can be done with full pay. Also lots of other people were in fact willing to do things unpaid at a board level. We worked with the Asian Charity Services (ACS), they really helped us with Enrich transitioning into a professional charity.

So that was the first step to mould the structure?

Yes.

They were the ones who suggested a different structure. They were like, well, you guys are the management. Now you need a board, you need an executive director. No … We’re just a group of friends doing this! Part of me really resisted that, because I was like, No, we’re all equal. You know, as soon as we had a hierarchy and structure, then yeah, someone needs to have that title.

So I was the first one to have that title of Executive Director and then I passed it on as soon as I could. As soon as there were funds, I passed it on. So there was that push from the team and from the consultants helping us to grow. For me, the motivation was wanting to do something else, to see Enrich grow, and not be the one managing it.

9. Addressing underlying (pain)

I remember the last time we had a chat, you mentioned about if the underlying pain can be addressed. Then it kind of resonates with what you said earlier, like a lot of the problems that people have is because they are not connected. Would you be open to discussing what you’ve observed from facilitating the empowerment or the financial literacy workshops?

Yes, that’s when I shifted what I want to share. 

Budgeting is hugely important; it’s a tool to help save and use money more wisely. 

But so often, the problem is an emotional issue. 

Consumption can be a compensation for emotional pain, for this longing. It could be longing for family members. It could be longing for another place, it could be loneliness. That’s the human existence, we all have a longing in us. And sometimes consumption is how we try to fill this longing. 

And when we recognise it, it’s helpful because it can help reverse some of our unnoticed coping strategies which can be excessive consumption. 

Even if you know how to make a budget, if you have this urge to spend on new clothes on Sunday, or eat certain things that you know aren’t good for you, you are unnecessarily using up your funds. Or if you send money home to a partner, who is spending it on be it alcohol or other coping strategies, unnecessary consumption, then the problem is going to continue even if you teach budgeting, there’s going to be this ongoing pain.When the pain hasn’t been addressed, it can be difficult to change spending habits.

Connect with Myriam Bartu and her guided recordings
on her website BathinginLove.com and/or the YogaNidraNetwork.

All images are from Myriam Bartu unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 5 October, 2021 at Singing Bowl Zentral, Hong Kong.

Where My Heart Leads – Food for thought:

• What have you found your heart is leading?
• What gives you that sense of purpose?

---

You may also be interested in:

Gift of meditation, yoga nidra and more

18 years in China – from where it began – Wellness consulting, opening China’s first health food store, and more – all steps leading up to the next thing. Kimberly took a two-year learning and travelling break, Eat.Pray.Love -esque. It helped shape her approach in using the Traditional Chinese Medicine understanding of food energetics, emotions, and healing to her teaching and work.

She shares how things came about – from not having a clue what and if she had a dream, to feeling viscerally a confirmation to her calling.

Amena said to me, you need to read this book or check this course out or something. And I read the term, I think it was Integrative Nutritional Therapist. I’m like, that’s me! That’s what I want to do! Literally, my whole body and my centre’s like, I gotta go do that! 

I don’t know what it means still really, it’s a vague term, it could encapsulate everything I do, but it doesn’t mean one thing. 

That was that first time I felt it and it stuck. 

Kimberly Ashton on how she felt viscerally knew this was where her heart led

1. Feeling free again – a two-year exploration
2. Bridging the gap in food energetics
3. The missing piece: emotions and our internal organs
4. Making decisions

---

1. Feeling free again

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads

So what led to the two-year of travelling and learning after a long stretch of work? A sabbatical of sorts.

In mid 2017, the landlord took the whole block of shops back. It was sad, but a part of me was happy because I felt free again, I wasn’t confined to paying rent in a big four walls of a space.

I was still doing wellness coaching and things on the side, but for the most part with my ex partner, we went traveling quite a lot in Asia. He was still working, but we did a lot of trainings. In Qigong, we went to workshops and retreats, partly to learn, partly to just decompress from living in Shanghai for so long.

I never thought Shanghai was stressful. A lot of people I know who would would say it is, and a lot of my clients that I worked with were. I guess I transmuted the stress into excitement.

There was a lot of stress and anxiety certainly with the business. And yes with crossing the street or driving a scooter, or just living and dealing with admin and banking and getting a visa every year and the like. So yes, there’re stresses, but I never saw them as the word stress. I just took it on board, which, still affects the nervous system. 

It’s definitely there. But it never put me down. I chose to be there. I chose to continue to live there. 

So that sort of almost two years was a bit of a transition period of what’s next? And again, I was just learning and meeting different people and up-skilling, and taking time for myself. So that I can apply it again now. That was a really fun, interesting year, kind of felt like a little bit of two years off, but I was still working, but definitely got more into the coaching. Rather than the shop and the teaching. I do miss teaching a lot. But it will come again.

I do miss the teaching or sharing of information and helping inspire other people. Whereas coaching is one-on-one on their problems or their health issues and conditions. So teaching is more community focused or fun, if it’s a group, and the topic is a lot lighthearted than one-on-one more serious wellness coaching.

What were some takeaways from those two years of travelling and learning?

I was learning a lot about myself, and then my partner and other people, and we met a lot of new friends and new people that were, I mean, I would have never met them if I was in Shanghai or Australia. 

They were very international, they were into Qi gong or yoga or whatever we were doing at the time. So definitely, new people, new energy. Just broadening my mind. I’m quite a broad thinker and an open minded person, but just again, expanding on that, meeting other people and great connections was really probably the key.

What it did reinforce was my passion for the five elements and nature and bringing in the food side. Through talking and meeting them (the people in Qigong training were many naturopaths, healers, meditation teachers, people into metaphysical things and energy) and spending time with people for that long in the training, you get to know yourself, but you get to know them, but you get to know yourself better and how you react and interact.

2. BRIDGING THE GAP – Food energetics

So whenever I meet people in that field, in that world, there’s isn’t a lot of information on food, and the connection between food and nutrition and health. So people are practicing their forms, or they’re meditating a lot. Or they’re teaching Qi Gong, or yoga or whatever they’re doing. 

And I’m always like – the missing element is food! 

And that’s happened to me as a theme actually since the last eight, nine years where I’ve always been like – food’s really important!

People are not aware that certain foods cause for example, a slowing down of the metabolism, or an impact on the Qi or energy. 

In their practice, they’re kind of eating for the sake of eating, whereas there’s lots of really nice, seasonal things you can do, or functional foods you can add. So there is a gap in the information and what people know. 

And so for me, it’s like, if only they ate better, then everything would be enhanced, or it would be increased, like they’d have more flexibility or they’d have a clearer mind or that they’ll perform better in their whatever sport or practice that they do.

So I see food more like the energy of the food and the seasonal nature of the food (the Five Elements) rather than proteins, fats and carbs.

How does emotions come in? I noticed that on your website.

I recommend people see an acupuncturist or TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) doctor because it can help rebalance the body with acupuncture, for example. And then maybe in 2015 /16, I’m like, okay, food is great, and I can help people get to here that improve their health, their physical conditions, but there’s a massive piece of the puzzle which is the emotional state that they’re in. 

So I got really intrigued. And that’s one whole layer of the five elements is the emotional state of the organs and the systems in the body – because different organs hold different emotions or react to different emotions. So I was fascinated by that. 

And I’m still working on bringing that more into sessions. Because what I do is such a combination of different things, when people come for a nutrition consultation, I’m very keen to get to the emotions or the the energetics of food. And it’s not really a standard thing. So definitely understanding the emotions has brought another layer in.

3. The missing piece: emotions and our internal organs

What made you realise that was missing? 

Because I would see clients improve. And then they’d get stuck, because they started changing their habits, buying healthier food, cooking better, or cooking more themselves, or making healthy food choices, and then their health goals were being met. 

So if it’s weight loss, or anxiety or sleep, you can do that. But then I was like, Well, no, there’s more. 

I would see their emotional state, or realise that they had issues with them. Mother, father, husband, wife, boss, whatever it is that those emotional interactions and relationships was also causing them. Stress or worry, or anger or like, the emotions were there as well.

At the moment I’ve seen a lot of issues with spleen. So it’s all about worry and anxiety. They’ll start to talk about these things either in the intake form or in the sessions that I’m having with them.

So having sweet flavour like sweetened desserts are really actually very good for the spleen. But it has to be healthy ones, not Coca Cola, or cupcakes, and donuts. So just trying to get them to shift and realise, okay, why am I suddenly craving or why am I always craving chocolate? And dessert? An ice cream? 

How does it make me feel? Why are you having this? Why is this emotion there? So that’s going into the emotional side, and we can use food to support that. Have some sweet things, but make healthy choices with that, start by eating more millet, sweet vegetables, like carrots and sweet potatoes. They’re very calming and soothing physically on the body. And then we’ll slowly talk about the emotion. 

So there’s a bit of therapy in there as well. But I use the food as sort of like the bridge to get there. Rather than going, “You really got to stop worrying.” 

Honestly, it’s the small, subtle changes that people make. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve introduced to millet in the last two months. It’s huge, go buy some millet and cook it with some pumpkin and eat it like this. And they’re like, okay, and just energetically they switch, because then automatically they’re eating less whatever they’re used to eating. Junk food, or cookies, or whatever it is. 

They’ll start to relax the spleen and stomach and improve their digestion. And therefore, the worry and anxiety levels come down just that just happens. 

That’s fact. Then we can start talking about who’s making you worry, the television or your mother or your boss or whatever. Because the emotional factors are going to be there for sure. And if you’re strong physically in the body, then you can handle the emotions better.

• 

• 

• 

4. Making decisions

What did you get out of having lived and traveled around the world?

The first thing that came to me, which I’m like, it’s silly, it’s a bit fluffy, but is that humans, we’re all the same. 

We’re all wanting experiences, to learn or to have fun or joy. Like I know that sounds a little soft. But that’s true, especially when you travel to like Vietnam. And then to like Japan. Very markedly different socio economic status, and ways of living – but you can be just as happy in an urban environment in Tokyo as someone in Hoi An in Vietnam, in the rice paddy fields.

So just that contrast. I actually really enjoy seeing how other people, how they live, first of all, and also how happy they are. 

Do you have any advice for other people who are aspiring to follow their heart?

Ah, yes. Start by doing the inner work and getting comfortable with looking/listening/viewing/ experiencing inwards. That could be through meditation, yoga, Qigong, self care, coaching, kinesiology, energy work, reading books, taking courses, get to know YOU so well that no-one can tell you what to do or what you “should” do.

Heart consciousness or heart-led living is a different way or dimension of living to what we are used to doing or have in the past been experiencing. You can do the same thing and expect different results, so be prepared for change to come and to change and make shifts in thinking, beliefs and actions. 

What might be the biggest challenge to do so?

Distractions, the outside world, family and friends. You have to be willing to trust yourself, develop your sense of intuition & knowingness and committed to staying on your own path.

I would suggest working on yourself and clearing all the baggage, limiting beliefs and social conditioning we have in modern times. You can’t lead a heart-based life and make clear choices for your own best interest if you don’t first have a clear relationship with yourself. 

A lot of us make decisions like, Oh, that’s too risky, or I’m scared, or I better not do that, or I shouldn’t, or I will really want to, but I won’t. And that’s based fundamentally on fear. You see that with people in, entering a relationship or choosing a new job, or, buying shoes, whatever it is. Or it’s like, well, what do I really want? Am I willing to try it? Because you know, you won’t know if you don’t try it. And that’s the other option, or just jumping into it and – fearless. And that’s the other.

So that’s what I meant. A lot of people, myself included in the past, would just be like, well, I’ll just choose the safe option. And I better not do this. And so that restricts you, because you’re limited, you can’t grow. You can’t have new experiences, because you’re always going to do the same kind of jobs. Repeat the same kind of people. Yeah, have the same kind of friends.

The world is shifting. That’s exciting part. We are shifting to more living from from the heart. For sure. And heart based consciousness. Making decisions from the heart.

All images are from Kimberly Ashton unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 8 June, 2021 via video conferencing.

You may also be interested in how the corporate wellness consulting in Shanghai and setting up the first health food store birthed and led to what Kimberly does now:

In Flow in Shanghai: Adventures of New Ventures

It’s okay to not know what you want to be when you grow up, because when you start following your heart, the experiences will lead you to your calling.

“The experience was like just everything I’ve done I’ve always felt is preparing me for the next thing, which it did. The steps led from one to another.”

Kimberly Ashton on their introducing wellness to companies in China

• 1. Wellness consulting in China
• 2. A store and then two: selling brown rice to people in China

---

Karen Tsui, Editor of Where My Heart Leads

Where did you grow up?

Kimberly Ashton: I grew up in Singapore as an expat kid. I think that set the tone for being open minded and curious to new people and cultures and experiences.

It’s very transient. 

I moved to Australia, for the end of high school. It was definitely a contrast to see how people grow up in one place, in one country, or maybe one city or one street. And I never really had that which was fine. And again, in hindsight, I’m glad.

As a kid, what did you want to be?

You know when they asked you in school, and I don’t remember the teacher asking me but I remember there’s always two things people ask growing up – 

What do you want to be when you grow up? What’s your dream wedding? 

And I’m like, I don’t know. Like, those two things just completely dissociate me. 

First of all, maybe I was like, I’m never going to grow up. So I can’t answer that question. And probably, I’ve reinvented myself so many times that it’s impossible to answer. Like, when you’re a kid, and you want to be, a firemen, or whatever it is you want to be. I’ve never had that. And that’s been true, because I’m not here to be one thing, or do one job.

What brought you to China?

I’ve always loved languages, travel and different cultures. So I was thinking between learning Japanese and Chinese. But there was a calling inside of me, and my parents were like you should do Chinese – it would be really useful. And I’m like, fine, I’ll do that first. 

So I went to Hangzhou and did a year and a half of exchange.

What called me there the second time was the opportunity to use my Chinese. And I had some friends who stayed there after Hangzhou. They were working there, and I thought – that sounds fun! So off I went, thinking I would just go for a while and see what happens. And 16 years later, I’m like, Okay, that was great. That’s enough. That’s 16 years in Shanghai, and 18 years in China altogether.

What led you to leave the corporate job?

My friend Amena and Georgia, who you know, they were pulling at my side going, “Come on let’s do it after the World Expo!” I was working in the bank in events and marketing, which is not a fun place to be if you’re a non banker in a bank.

How come?

Definitely not heart-led. *jokes*

Definitely not feeling it and enjoying it from from a place of knowing and purpose.

It was really fun to do that year. I loved it. And I don’t regret any of anything that I did in Shanghai at all, actually. When my role finished after the World Expo in Shanghai 2010, the bank was like, we really want you to stay. You can work in HR and training. Good money, and you can work with the Melbourne team, you can go back to Australia regularly. I’m like, no – no, thank you.

And my friends were like, “Come on, let’s do this Wellness Business.” So to answer your question, it was a part of me that just knew I had to go into wellness, and part of me was like, they were waiting.

Did the three of you have enough wellness background then?

At that stage for what we wanted to do – Yes. 

So Amena had the innovation background, she’s been working in innovation, wellness, for many years now, but she was doing that as well. 

And then I was doing health coaching, but I was fairly new at it, and health, wellness, and nutrition. 

And then Georgia was the business side of it, and just an avid fan of Chinese medicine. For 10 years we were a wellness consulting company. 

We were a bit early, we’ve always been a bit early, which I’ve since realised, and in understanding my own elements, and my own personality, and a lot of this is off slightly off topic. But you might find it interesting. 

I’m into this whole birthing experience at the moment. So I was born early, and I’m a spring element, a wood element in Chinese medicine in my numbers. So I’m just always early – with ideas, not like on time to a party, necessarily. *laughs* 

1. Wellness consulting in China

What is wellness consulting?

We were doing events and for staff – so employee wellness programs, corporate wellness days, we were doing things like projects with BUPA, and insurance companies on creating products or service offerings for them to be more health and wellness rather than like, here’s medical insurance. 

We were creating wellness day programs and themes and having monthly speakers and things in the cafeteria to get employee engagement. But it’s really tough in China, because it’s so new for staff then.

Now it’s more normal. I don’t know that it’s expected but it’s definitely normal. Health and wellness as an industry has grown everywhere, really.

What were the takeaways from starting that venture?

I think it was good for just getting a feel for the corporate side of wellness because that’s a harder sell because those people are less likely to be aware of or interested in wellness than yoga people for example, or fitness people. They’re already into that, looking after myself or Mind, Body, Health, that kind of thing. 

So it was a good experience in learning how to package things, you know, offerings, how to write different content, create different events, to raise their awareness on the importance of wellness. We did a lot of events, and we had our own events as well  – workshops and conferences. 

So the experience was more just like everything I’ve done I’ve always felt is preparing me for the next thing, which it did. 

And so after that, Georgia and I opened a health food store. And then we had non-stop events for individuals and corporates, and everyone in between. It was good preparation really.

2. A store then two: Selling brown rice to people in China

What were the tough parts going into that?

Apart from the the administrative and logistical things of opening a store in China, I would say that the hardest thing is the concept. Because that was back in 2013-ish. Again, very new. There’s still no health food store anywhere in China. 

So creating a shop, selling stuff that people don’t know they need yet, like nuts and seeds and whole grains. Every day, people would come in and go, What’s this? What’s this? How do I cook it? Why do I need to eat it?

What were the risks and the rewards of doing something so new?

The risks was everything! 

So why do it?

Because we, I, just knew I had to do it. We just followed the path that we wanted to do, because we’re very passionate about the topic and the concept of the brand and the store.

A big part of us just was like, Yes, it was risk. And everyone else around us was like, Yeah, it’s a big risk. 

But it was just like, there was no other choice at the time, I would have done exactly the same, obviously, maybe, you know, better business decisions. But for the most part, it was just like, I have to do this. I want to do this. Yeah, I can’t explain it more than that really. 

And everything fell into place. 

When it was like time to make a decision, do we move in here? Yeah, Why else? Why wouldn’t we? Or move out and then into other space? Same thing, it just kind of just flowed. When we had the first one. Then, we expanded to the second store.

The steps led from one to another. 

And then it became, oh, well, maybe we should sell some products. Okay, let’s sell some products along with the cooking class. So then it just became, it just grew organically and small. I think, for me, that was the best way. 

We’re all, learning on the job, how to sell brown rice to people in China. 

In terms of the flow, it was just more like a combination of, I want to do this, and I need to do this. That was the feeling. 

I’ve worked in jobs where I knew it was a mistake to go there, or every morning, I would wake up and hate it. 

That’s when you know, when your body is telling you. Listen to your body and your feelings.

What made you feel viscerally that you wanted to dive into Chinese medicine or nutrition?

The first time was when I read a book from Amena. 

She said to me, you need to read this book or check this course out or something. And I read the term, I think it was Integrative Nutritional Therapist or something. I’m like, that’s me! That’s what I want to do! Literally, in my whole body and my centre’s like, I gotta go do that! 

I don’t know what it means still really, it’s a vague term, it could encapsulate everything I do, but it doesn’t mean one thing. 

That was that first time I felt it and it stuck. 

And I can remember the feeling of longing and like, clarity and confirmation. I’m like, I have to go do that. And so everything I’ve done since then, 2009. I just sort of built my toolbox since and understood that there’s so many modalities and things. 

---

Continue on to Kim’s sharing on her Eat. Pray. Love – esque two year travelling and learning qigong after 18 years in China. The people she met, the observations she made, helped shaped her approach of using the Traditional Chinese Medicine understanding of how organs and emotions are interlinked, and the five elements to bridge a a gap in food and our well being.

There’s No Stopping when it’s a Calling: Kimberly Ashton

All images are from Kimberly Ashton unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 8 June, 2021 via video conferencing.

Throughout our chat Kelvin mentioned quite a few times, “Yeah, I/we were 「膽粗粗」” which loosely translates to – I/we didn’t have the fullest idea of how it was going to be, but I/we were bold and just went in anyway.

Like Matt Knights who mentioned that the room lights up when the creative juices get going in prototyping sessions, our chat with Kelvin definitely lit up when he was talking about the fun he had dancing, walking the “renovation streets” and being on one of the most rewarding tours that unexpectedly opened up a new line of work for him.

The tour influenced the passion I have towards my work and was certainly a telling test. It enabled me to build a new profession, and challenged me and showed me how committed I was and my patience. It was tough, the tour – travelling to different places, and physically it required a lot.

Kelvin Lam on being part of Jacky Cheung’s world tour 2016-19

1. When the going gets tough, the tough gets going
2. Grow up! A major wake-up call
3. Teach and evolve
4. Art crossing over into design and vice versa
5. Simply Bold
6. Test of true colours. Two-year world tour

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads:

Tell us about yourself. Let’s start from the beginning, shall we?

Kelvin Lam: When I was a kid, when my dad read the newspaper, the images of floor plans from ads for new property releases really intrigued me. I remember I would imagine what I would do if I had that space. Where will the bed go? Where would the TV go? Just imaginary. I was probably around 11, 12 years old and at that time had no concept of what interior design is. But I liked imagining things. 

Frankly, I didn’t have any major leanings or directions growing up so things just kind of happened.

Getting into APA (Academy of Performing Arts, Hong Kong) was really my first step into a direction/profession. So even when I got in, there was no inkling of this – as in it wouldn’t have occurred to me that I would be doing interior design as we speak now.

So how did you discover your direction?

Kelvin: Now I can speak of it freely, but I used to feel embarrassed talking about it. 

When I was in Form 5, I actually tried out for the TVB International Chinese New Talent Singing Championship (TVB is Hong Kong’s local TV station).

I liked to perform. At school, I was a bit of a show-off and I was quite good with sports. I liked exploring things and participated in singing contests at school so I thought I wasn’t too shabby and for try-outs at the TV station. But then of course it requires a lot more professional talent and training than what I had. So although I didn’t get in, it got me wondering how else I could get into the entertainment industry. 

Back then, to get in to the TVB artiste training program, you need to be at least 175cm tall and I was only 171cm. I found out that APA offered a pathway into the industry so I applied to that instead.

It was quite a miracle in a way because I applied for the dance department when I had zero background in dance.

Was it difficult to get into APA?

It’s hard to say. One of the first things they test you on is music theory, but nothing too complicated. Then we went through a class where the adjudicators observed us whilst we were in class. And that was my first dance class ever. 

I remember it being really fun. We had live music in class – live piano or live percussion. That was how it was during the school year too. The live piano or live drums really add to the atmosphere and excitement of class. They taught us some basic combinations of movements for the audition. 

Thinking back, I probably made it look decent, but the theory behind it wasn’t quite there. Technique-wise I was at zero. But it was a really fun class and I remembered all the moves. We did cross the floor moves – it was like play, a class of play. I really felt very happy in the class and felt how fun it was to dance with others. 

After that, if you get called back, you perform a self-choreographed solo. I did get a call-back so that was a fun experience too. I took all we learnt in class and pieced together the moves and choreographed my own piece for the audition. It was quite a miracle.

After I performed, the teachers asked me how I came to learn to dance. I told them what I told you about my background.

“The only dance I watch is that of Aaron Kwok.” I had no clue who Michael Jackson was then! I just watched tapes and copied how back-up dancers moved on stage. And I had not gone to a single dance class.

After my audition, the interviewers asked, “So why do you like to dance? What makes you want to apply to APA?”

Obviously, I wouldn’t tell them that I wanted to be a pop star!

I told them I had misunderstood what contemporary dance was and thought it meant the type of dance you see back-up dancers do behind pop singers, but I also told them that I felt contemporary dance was a lot of fun.

I was quite lucky. They accepted me. There were three guys in our class. My wife Flora too was one of my classmates.

Why were you able to do what you wanted to do? As in, were there concerns from your family?

With my family, we don’t really talk about what does or doesn’t make a living. Before going to APA, I had thought about studying overseas – like studying Accounting in Australia. 

Our family is not super well-off so I knew that to study overseas would be a strain on my parents. So we agreed after all that it wasn’t ideal so instead, I was given the freedom to explore whatever I wanted in Hong Kong. 

I think my mother trusts that I am someone disciplined and methodological, so she wouldn’t worry that I would go “off-course.” She gave me the freedom to explore. So I was free to do so. They didn’t worry or seemed too concerned about how the job would or wouldn’t earn me a living.

1. When the going gets tough, the tough gets going

Fortunately, after graduation, I was able to teach soon after. It was a bit tough in the first half a year to a year or so but afterwards, I was able to support the family. 

You have to get to the bottom of your heart and ask – are you here to show up at your job or are you here to dance? You need both, but when I’m here dancing on stage and I’m really enjoying it, I won’t be feeling that I am doing a job. 

Kelvin Lam

How was it tough in the beginning?

I suppose it’s the case for many dance graduates – you won’t necessarily be in a job or at teaching job after you graduate. You either have to apply for jobs or attach yourself to dance studios so people can get to know you and if they like what you do, they might invite you to teach there. 

But you know what, Angela Hang, was one of our instructors for Jazz Funk, which was an elective. I took Jazz Funk and that was how I got to know Angela. (Karen: I had gone for dance lessons at Angela’s studio and that’s where I got to know Kelvin.)

We knew she taught at other studios at the time. Flora, myself and some classmates were really hooked so we took classes with Angela outside of APA also. 

Angela at that point had yet to open her studio. But soon after, like in six months, she did – she she opened Ones To Watch in Tsim Sha Tsui – with High King and Sunny Chan. We took lessons there too when it first opened. 

Looking back, what were some people or experiences that influenced you?

Overall the teachers at APA has a great influence on my studies and even my approach in life. 

At times I did try to take short cuts or let achievements get the better of me. 

I applied for Grants and Loans while at APA and there were lots offered by the school and based on GPA I managed to get them. The first two-years was a Diploma. After which you can continue on to a Degree or an Advanced Diploma. 

I didn’t want to stay in school for so long and thought I would do an Advanced Diploma instead. By then I had one job experience under my belt and thought I might start making a living instead because honestly I didn’t have the funds to continue. To cover my living expenses, I was tutoring and found it a bit stressful. 

What happened was we had advisory sessions with our faculty advisors every half year. I explained my situation to them and told them what I was intending. I didn’t ask them to help. However at graduation, the school, the teachers pulled together a year’s worth of funds to cover my tuition for the full year! 

I felt I was on cloud nine. 

But then I had a lesson – a very memorable lesson.

2. Grow up! A major wake-up call.

We had a school tour to Germany. On return, we had an advisory session again and it was like I was struck hard with a stick. I was told I was so careless and wasn’t concentrating in class whilst in Germany. It had a big impact. I felt really bad about my behaviour, especially when the teachers had put so much effort in me, I felt I really shouldn’t be so disrespectful. I cried and I cried.

That was really a turning point.

From then on, whether it’s with dance or in class, before I step into the studio, I prepare myself. I know what I am to do in class. Even with choreography, I prepare myself before going in so I don’t go in on a daze. 

From that year on, my GPA improved. It wasn’t stellar because Flora’s is really good, but it was definitely up there. No more Cs. Everything was B and above to As. 

What was the school tour in Germany about?

We were there for two weeks and collaborated with a few other schools. We performed a famous piece by Taiwan Cloud Gate Theatre’s Lin Hwai Min. It was a difficult piece. We were young and physically we weren’t super strong. Four schools participated – from Taiwan, US, Australia … and each school performed a quarter of the piece.

Maybe on the tour I was a bit impetuous and didn’t have a good attitude, as in I wasn’t professional enough when it came to the dance performance. 

So that experience had a great impact.

What was schooling like at a performing arts school?

I really liked our teachers at APA because it felt like family. Because classes were small, teachers cared about how the students developed and we were close to the teachers so it felt like a family. We shared a lot with each other. They were really open-minded and very encouraging. It was very open and we could consider many dimensions and aspects of things. Three-quarters of the faculty were from overseas. 

It was very different from the “force-feeding” type of learning in high school. They really gave us a tiny bit of guidelines and a lot of freedom in terms of choreography to create. In class, of course there was a curriculum and there was technique that we learn. But in terms of creation and creativity, we had a lot of freedom.

Our teachers taught us different means of creation. Our classes were not only in the studio, we also went to the pool, open spaces out in nature. We were a motley crew of students really – probably one the quirkiest classes at APA – with people of different shapes, sizes and abilities. That may have made it harder on the teachers to find ways to inspire us. 

How do you bring that to your teaching now?

It’s the passion I believe. 

Dancing is a sport.

You go through an energy so others can feel your energy, or you use your own energy to “infect” others. 

So it’s all very infectuous in a way.

It makes me feel that it is something very real. It gives me a strong sense of existence. 

When you’re performing on stage, you emanate your energy and the feedback that comes back gives me a lot of satisfaction.

Through being a teacher, you continue to learn how you could teach better, and you also evolve and grow. So that’s why we took lessons overseas to improve and also open ourselves to more inspiration – be it in the quality of movement or the creative concept. So to enable ourselves to be more.

3. Teach and evolve

How long have you been teaching?

I entered APA in 1999, I started teaching in 2001. I started teaching properly when I graduated in 2003 at CCDC (City Contemporary Dance Company) – their evening classes. And also taught at Angela’s studio – studiodanz. And also electives at APA too.  

So you’ve been teaching for almost twenty years. How has it evolved?

Because the foundations of Jazz Funk is in jazz technique so the basics are very solid, and students can progress. The biggest change I feel is the creative style and the evolution of dance styles – from Jazz Funk to Hip Hop/Jazz to Urban Dance and now choreography. Changing with the times. 

I guess in more recent years, the relationship with students has changed. You know, you teach a class and you don’t just leave. Aside from questions on technique, some students who you’ve gotten to know better might have questions on life, on how they think about dance, so there’s bound to be more sharing. 

The sharing has evolved – it used to be more simplistic, like what are the benefits of dancing. Later it’s more like professors – you analyse with them according to their gifts and talents, what might be the options. What’s interesting though when I talk to the students – if there’s something they really really want, no matter how you advise them, they will go for it. 

Because sometimes I might tell some students, “Maybe you don’t need to go to APA because there’s a whole lot of theory and it might not suit you. If you just want to dance and perform, you can do that at studios.” But they might have a preconceived idea that APA is better or whatnot, so somehow I’ve surprisingly discovered that some of my students got into APA or Showbiz Project. (A program under studiodanz)

So what’s really gratifying to see is – when people believe they can be more, they challenge themselves to that.

What’s really gratifying is that over these 20 years, there have been many students and a number of them are now teaching dance also.

What do you feel you impart on your students?

An attitude/mindset. And also my take on artistic expression.

For me, with choreography, I look for the meaning and concept behind the creation. So students that come to me know I am a bit more strict and tend to approach dance through a creative concept, rather than simply moves. It might not be the easiest to handle. For newbies – it could take a little time to get a sense of the style. When they start to get a sense of it, then they start to understand, “Ah, that is the texture that Kelvin is driving at.” 

4. Art crossing over into design and vice versa

With Art, when you’ve done it for some time, it’s not simply playing the notes to a piece. You start to get a sense of the essence within and that touches you in a different way. That’s something that I’ve always sought to explore. So I think that aspect would influence the students.

That relates to your interior design work, right? Because it’s not simply about how you move, but how you create the overarching atmosphere. 

You said you went for your interior design thing in 2016. Was there something that clicked that the time is now?

So each year, I give myself a goal. Something for me to achieve. For example, one year, I want to take lessons in the US. Or another year, I want to delve into this aspect of dance. Yet another year, I want to learn about stage lighting. I give myself a task each year. 

All the other tasks have been fulfilled and in 2016 I remembered that I have always been interested in interior design and thought perhaps I can give it a go.

So it wasn’t a long-time coming, and since it was not a full-time course, I was able to do it. 

It’s interesting how both interior design and dance started for me. 

The thing was – I wasn’t planning on making interior design a profession. It was simply something I was interested in and enjoyed, and wanted to experience it. So when you’ve put yourself in the experience, enjoyed the process, you realise that it may have given you a different sense of satisfaction and so you continue.

It resonates with what you said earlier – to follow your heart with what you feel would be fun. 

5. Simply Bold

Was it after graduation that you realised you wanted to make this your profession?

Actually no because I was still dancing then. I took the course in 2016 before the tour. (The auditions were in June, rehearsals began in August). After graduation I was on tour so I wasn’t thinking so much about design.

What happened though was I had to move house and had to renovate. My sister-in-law needed their place renovated also. And studiodanz too was moving to its current location in Tai Koo. So I ended up handling these three projects at the time.

Actually before then, when Kowloon studiodanz moved from Jordan to San Po Kong, Hong Boy and I oversaw the renovation. Really just being bold (膽粗粗) – I didn’t know a lot, and I just went into into it. Since Hong Boy had experience renovating a studio he shared with his crew in Kwun Tong, we had that to go along with for the studiodanz renovations. We wanted to conserve renovation costs. 

Those three projects just kind of appeared for you to try your hand in interior design!

Yeh. 

So the design program was around six months.

What’s interesting is it ultimately boils down to how much you want to learn. The course was a very general course to give us a sense of the workflows so what we learnt wasn’t in too much detail. Yet during the course, I was super interested in the subject so I walked through the ‘renovation streets’ a LOT. I walked into the material stores pretending I’m already a designer and asked for a lot of sample materials. 

Because I was really interested in it, I went the extra mile. Even now, maybe my staff wouldn’t be as ‘crazy’ as I was. Sometimes I’d go online to see how people design, how they make certain things. 

It’s kind of like, when you like dancing, you’ll naturally go online and look at dance videos to learn more. Same thing.

Five, six months is short, and not necessarily enough. But I put effort into learning more and to enrich my understanding of design. 

What’s new as a business owner? Or you being your own brand so to speak?

When it was a one-man-band, I didn’t have a lot of experience communicating with the tradesmen. And I got cheated quite a bit in the beginning. 

Really? How?

Yeah. They will cut corners. Things that don’t easily get noticed, they’ll do it the “easy way.“

So it’s through these challenges that you learn. 

Because as a professional designer, there is a lot of information you would need to prepare for a renovation project. 

And when you are servicing clients, you need to give them a more full-service solution. And I didn’t know what that ‘full-service’ entailed when I began.

I have been learning from each job. I review after each project, and I go online to look up how others might handle the workflow. It’s actually been a steep learning curve. 

The learning has enriched me as a person and to be more grounded. So what we offer can be more professional and with that clients naturally have more trust in you.

How did you resolve those mistakes?

Well, by paying out of pocket! (laughs) Either the tradesmen have to redo the work because they’ve made the mistake. Or if I’ve purchased the wrong materials or miscalculated the quantity, then I’ll have to pay up. When it’s my mistake, I’ll have to bear the loss. So it was quite stressful. Especially in the beginning, I was really scared of making mistakes. Because when it involves money – and you weren’t charging big fees, it was quite stressful. 

I guess overtime, you found your group of trustworthy partners and collaborators. 

Yeah. Really – it wasn’t easy.

I feel that with partners – whether it’s in dance, or now for work – the tradesmen, contractors, or colleagues – it has to do with fate, and shared values and attitudes, whether we listen patiently and communicate open heartedly. There are many things that I am learning along the way.

I’ve gone through many collaborators to find the ones I work with now. I want to find good partners, that are responsible. So what I deliver to clients is up to standard and there is a reputation, good word of mouth.

Sometimes it’s hard having your own business – you have to bear the responsibility. You might feel guilty. You want to do better, which means you think about how you can enhance your service more. So you end up putting a lot of heart and effort in everything.

Do you pick your clients?

Yes, somewhat. When you sense they are taking advantage of you or are going to be unreasonable, then it’s worth the time. Because now with my own company, I have staff to pay and such. So if the project can’t meet our minimum charge, then we’ll give the project a pass. We would also be honest with the client – that perhaps with the budget they have in mind, we won’t be able to deliver this kind of a thing. Generally, they understand.

What do you reckon is the uniqueness of your designs?

Our Chinese name is 點 恰。 My concept is to highlight one’s personal style, to bring out the natural beauty of one’s personal style. Because everybody has their own unique style and the home belongs to the people that live in it, right? Through my interactions with the client, I discover their likes and preferences, and with the creative design elements I sync with and express their character so to speak.

In a sense it’s like energy – coz you see not their look, but their energy so to speak.

Yes, indeed.

The second part of the tagline – expresses my view of not going overboard, but striking a balance because some clients might go overboard and it departs from who they are I feel.

So these are the two ethos so to speak – it’s how I approach dance performance too. 

Even though with dance we have to perform or expand ourselves. Regardless of how large we expand, the nature or the attitude is rooted in that person, that person’s energy. And not a fake energy. So that’s the approach in design. 

People who like our designs, my clients, friends, they experience that aspect I just mentioned. It’s not over the top. I wouldn’t want to create something that doesn’t come off as the owner.

Do you have any longer-term goals or dreams?

Projects abroad – because there is more space for the designer to play around with. Hong Kong is generally tight space-wise. It oftentimes boils down to actual needs – and that’s generally driven by practicality. With space constraints, there is less room for more unusual or out of this world-type design concepts.

I would like to do more designs of unusual contours and lines. But it also boils down to budget. So sometimes I experiment with paints. Anything extra, costs more. I could pay out of pocket, but I am not at that point where I can do that every time. I need to take into account costs and make a living so I can provide for my family.

In the future, I would like to go overseas and explore. I particularly like Danish designs and Australian designs and would like to learn or even work there. 

6. A test of true colours: Two-year world tour

Lastly, you mentioned that the tour made you realise you need to treat yourself better? 

It was something that made a big impression on me because you could see that some people are really passionate about their profession. 

You have to understand that especially for a long tour (Jacky Cheung’s world tour 2016 -2019), things can get routine or unthinking. Maybe there are times that you aren’t performing to the best of ability. Overtime, would the moves become robotic or monotonous? 

When I see Flora (Kelvin’s wife also on tour) or Jacky Cheung (the singer) – they are uncompromising when it comes to delivering a professional performance. So sometimes they share how they keep the fire or passion going. Especially when you’re doing 200 plus shows, how do you keep yourself at the level where you are performing your best?

How much you love it really shows because you must love it enough that you’ll remind yourself each time going into a performance to do your best. 

You have to get to the bottom of your heart and ask – are you here to show up at your job or are you here to dance? You need both, but when I’m here dancing on stage and I’m really enjoying it, I won’t be feeling that I am doing a job. 

When you’re on stage, the audience feels your energy. Even though I am a back-up dancer, people can still tell if you’re there just to stand around or if you’re putting your heart into it. 

So that experience gave me an opportunity to see the passion people have towards their profession, that really made an impression on me.

I also felt thankful because opportunities to be on a world tour performing for such a stretch of time doesn’t come around often. It’s a training and a test – to tell you how much you actually love this. Because if for the stretch of time you’re still loving it, then it shows you you really do love it.

Because if the love wasn’t there, the passion would be fleeting. Maybe it lasts three months and after that you’re just showing up for work. It’s just really telling. It’s a big challenge.

All my life, most projects are shorter – concerts, performances, or even tours were much shorter. So this was a very important milestone for me to be on the Jacky Cheung tour. I am very thankful because the tour gave me many things – I saw the world, and we had break time on tour – I got to do my interior design stuff. Some people did other things. Some played video games. 

It was during the tour that I grew my interior design work as I balanced the performance part and the design work. Because really, if it wasn’t for the tour, I am not sure I would be in this office space, operating in this manner and having a conversation with you now. 

The tour influenced the passion I have towards my work and was certainly a telling test. It enabled me to build a new profession, and challenged me and showed me how committed I was and my patience. It was quite tough really the tour – travelling to different places, and physically it required a lot.

This probably was one of the concerts where I’ve danced the most – typically I would perform 8 dances per concert or less but for this one, I did 11 or 12 and each were full-length songs. So say 12 songs, and 5 minutes each – that’s a full hour of dancing on stage. 

My wife, myself, and some colleagues would train at the gyms at the hotel or swim to keep up our physical fitness. After removing the makeup and back to the hotel, I tended to the interior design work. Sometimes till late. 

It’s a test of endurance of how committed and passionate you are with your pursuit so to speak. 

Looking back, it was really positive because you allowed yourself to go through a remarkable once-in-a lifetime type experience. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Postscript

Kelvin was one of my dance teachers. I didn’t really converse with him back in those days and am glad to find out more about him in this chat. One afternoon, as I wondered who I might invite for an interview, I saw on TV a walk-through of a pretty chic, yet practical (ie. plenty storage for a small space) apartment. And to my surprise, it was Kelvin being interviewed for his work as one of many hats – designer.

All images are from Kelvin Lam unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 21 May, 2021 via video conferencing.

Where My Heart Leads – Food for thought:

• Do you set yourself an intent at the beginning of each year like Kelvin? (He talks about giving himself a goal each year and that has energised this growth)
• What have fulfilled over the years? Do you see your growth?

---

You may also be interested in:

Meet Noguchi: Design & Art for a better world

Humility – it affects your drawing. You can tell his (the teacher’s) Buddha is very humble. Every line, there’s no flick of a line, everything is just so very down to earth. So, I think maybe in terms of Thangka painting, if you are able to have that kind of mindset, it would affect it would make your drawings more heart …

Jacqueline Shiu

It’s not about the paper. It’s about the attitude.

Jacqueline Shiu

1. What’s in a Thangka painter
2. Respectfulness – do you understand?
3. Paintings and the philosophy within
4. A career, also a lifetime practice
5. A step at a time

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads

Why do you do art? 

Jacqueline Shiu: So I’ve always liked drawing and painting, even as a kid. And I think a lot of it is because my sisters were closer in age. So I had to play by myself. I was good at drawing, so I got a lot of encouragement from friends and teachers and parents with my drawing. 

Really early on, I remember my drawings were quite surreal. I mean, I like to put different things together and join them in a weird, weird way. 

When I was 12 years old, dad and I went to England. We went to the National Gallery, and I saw this huge painting – it’s very realistic. It’s the Beheading of Lady Jane Grey. But it was so dramatic. And I was so blown away, because the textures were just so realistic. And it’s the texture, and of course the composition and the subject matter as well. I think at that point, I started noticing oil painting – as in the power of a painting.

I didn’t think too deeply into the power of the painting, but definitely I was like, “Oh my god, oil paint can do this!?” So I thought, “Maybe I want to do oil painting. 

Thinking back, my approach to art has always been very scientific and logical – meaning there’s always a cause, a therefore; because of this, therefore, it should be this. That’s kind of how I thought.

So I think while it’s my personality, I suppose it’s reflected in the artwork that everything’s a little ordered, and maybe even stiff. 

For the purpose of making a shawl, this pattern actually turned out very nicely because of the hard lines. But I think that as a painting, it is not my favourite. 

So even in university, I was always trying to understand “What is art?” And it’s obviously very subjective. I’ve always been inclined to think that there should be a kind of painstaking process involved in art making. 

I like intricacy and pattern, because I think it’s the labour of hard work that makes it more valuable to me. Back in university, despite being in LA, where everything’s conceptual, I’ve always found value in aesthetics. If there is such a thing, right, because it’s so subjective. I think there is.

So what I do now is kind of a combination between this very structured, controlled, logical way of thinking, combined with aesthetics and beauty. 

For university, I was actually going to be a biology major, because, as a Buddhist myself, I’ve always thought, “What’s the defining line between science and consciousness?” So I kind of thought, maybe biology would bring me closer to those answers.

So what happened?

I think when you have a lecture of a few hundred people, then it becomes just memorising Greek words.

So I lost interest. And I took up art instead. There were a lot of conceptual things going on in LA. It was hard to grasp in the beginning, because it also has to do with maturity, right? And sometimes, if you’re just concerned with finishing up your homework so you can go play, you don’t really digest what you’re learning.

Nonetheless, I did absorb some of the Californian culture in art making.

Which is?

Which is, not so much about aesthetics. It’s conceptual. It’s a different vibe. Not my vibe. I think it’s definitely very innovative. Perfect for like product design or creating new things.

Where do you kind of draw the line between design versus art?

So going back to the California thing. It’s very innovative for novelty design products, for new things. But actually, what I’m trying to express is a more traditional value. So I think that’s the biggest difference between California and me. 

So when I first started this venture (An eponymous line of products), it stemmed from having taken some Thangka classes in Nepal. It was my Sifu’s (Sifu is what one calls their master teacher when you’re an apprentice of sorts) wish that I take some classes with this guy and see what happens. So I did. This was maybe 2013? Or earlier? I think earlier. 

I went to Nepal and stayed in Sharminub, which is the monastery that he is building. It was a short stay. More like an introduction to Thangka painting, and I stayed there for three weeks only.

1. What’s in a Thangka Painter

I’ve come to learn a little more about Thangka painting as a religious form with another teacher. He is basically the lineage holder of our Karma Kagyu sect. Like everything that has to do with art, visual things, statues, you have to go through him.

To give you an example, last time he came to Hong Kong, he was trying to teach us how to repair statues. 

He had collected a bunch of statues from other disciples that needed preparing. At the Buddhist centre, we were unwrapping all these statues in bubble wrap. And then he said, “You know, there’s no need to waste the bubble wrap. So just, flatten it, keep it aside, we can use it later.”

And you know, the tape was really old and it was hard to peel off. And also the statues have been kind of broken for a long time and in storage for a long time.  Not broken, but just in storage. So some parts were moulding and some of the paint chipped. So I was ripping off the bubble wrap, and it was one bubble wrap where I ripped a little harder because the tape wasn’t coming off. And then he yelled at me. 

At first it seems like – Why are you yelling at me for ripping the bubble wrap? But then he explained – it’s about putting the same care, putting your care wholeheartedly into anything that you do. So you know, of course I felt bad. And that’s the kind of teaching I get from him. And that’s the representation of what it means to be a Thangka painter. 

2. Respectfulness – do you understand?

On another occasion, I went to visit him in Sikkim. It was a short trip. He taught me for a week. That whole week, we were just drawing the Buddha head in proportion. And, he said, “Don’t waste paper, just use this scrap paper. So I had to use both front and back…”

What was going on in your head?

I suppose as an artist in the Western world, I feel like, “Oh, everyone has tons of sketchbooks. You would just sketch page after page after page.” But for a Norbula, who grew up in Sikkim, and learnt to do Thangka the proper way, way back when they didn’t have paper or pencil. So everything is very precious to him. 

So on this sheet of paper, I had drafted the head a little too high. And there wasn’t space for the hair above the head. But I thought, you know, that part is the easy part to draw. So I’ll just leave it out. So I went to draw the entire face, and I showed Norbula. And I had a real scolding from him. Because he said I was being so disrespectful to him as a teacher, and to the Buddha for submitting a drawing that’s incomplete.

Because you can’t show work in progress?

You can ask him, “Hey, you know, I have trouble. What do you think?” That’s okay. But to submit something and say I’m done, and it’s not perfect. Meaning, you’ve not put your fullest…

You were aware of the potential of more work in it.

Yeah. So I got scolded real bad. But rightly so. It’s this kind of teaching that we lack in the Western society, which is (the training of the heart) teaching.

What did you observe when he was in Hong Kong and you were all working on repairing the statues?

The general theme is the same. Like, when you do something, you do it wholeheartedly, and you do it respectfully. And you do the best that you can. I mean, technique wise, I’m fine. But the part that I’m lacking is the humility and the patience.

It’s a continuous process right?

Yeah.

What does it mean by humility?

Humility – it affects your drawing. So when we were doing the Buddha heads in Sikkim, I drew some Buddha heads and I thought, Oh, you know, basically, you’re drawing the Buddha and your heart and your mind. So I drew a face that looked like this. And when I was drawing the eye, I thought, Okay, this line should be like this. Because in my mind, the Buddha is pretty cool. Like pretty awesome. Like he’s an awesome kind of dude in my mind.

But then when I looked at his Buddha (the teacher’s Buddha), you can tell his Buddha is very humble. Every line, there’s no flick of a line, everything is just so very down to earth. So, I think maybe in terms of Thangka painting, if you are able to have that kind of mindset, it would affect your drawings … 

As in like, every work that you make is in a way the product and a reflection of the artist.

Yeah. Even if it’s just a line.

So I’m learning a lot from him in the short weeks that I spent with him.

3. Paintings and the philosophy within

What is Thangka painting?

I don’t know enough about Thangka to say what it means. I have a vague idea of what the Mandela means.

So what is Thangka? What is mandala?

Thangka is basically paintings – Buddhist paintings.

And Mandala is specifically the kind that is centred.  So if you take the Mandala as an example, it represents the Universe. And the Universe has four directions. And in these four directions, there are different things. With my artwork, in a similar way, I try to represent the concepts, the idea, with geometric shapes and directions and lines and shapes. Be it spirals or repeated patterns. 

Can you give us an example?

So let’s take this “Mother” painting as an example.

The title of this painting is “Mother.” I’ve been taking psychology classes, and my psychology teacher mentioned that, “A Mandala is the representation of the womb, or the universe, these kinds of concepts.” And then through the psychology classes as well, we learned to be connected to our own mothers, in a sense that we come from her body, the beginning of our existence, we were in her body for X amount of time, and how she’s passed on all the nutrients, etc to us. 

I was just imagining, as a fetus in her belly, what was it like? So it’s like a tribute to mothers. There are a lot of spirals and braids and entanglement in my paintings because as a general Buddhist theme, everything is interconnected, right? 

And the spiral is, when I did it, I was thinking of the quality of the belly button, the belly button. But also how, in this universe, there’s like a tunnel that doesn’t end. 

The recurring theme is, everything is very interconnected. So I guess what I paint represents Buddhist ideas of interconnectedness, and how there’s no beginning or ending of time – those kinds of things. I don’t want to just paint three paintings and talk about big themes. 

I’m using a lot of these topics. It’s just really for dialogue, and it’s my way of sharing these ideas that I value. Someone might find it interesting, seeing things from this angle. So that’s why I’m doing all of these paintings based on these Buddhist philosophies.

4. A career, and also a practice for a lifetime

You mentioned through your art, you wanted to achieve something

For myself or for other people?

In general.

I’m quite lucky to be able to do this, because it satisfies many things in my life. So obviously, one is, I like making something beautiful. So I get the satisfaction of, “AH I love this, this is so beautiful!” doing it.

And then I also get to express my, well, they’re not my thoughts, they are Buddhist philosophy. But I find it meaningful that these ideas can be shared among people who are not Buddhists or religious. So I find meaning in that. And lastly, I have yet to learn the proper Thangka painting, but it’s also for my own practice, my own Buddhist practice. 

I mean, I see this as a lifetime thing to do, a lifetime practice. I mean, parts of it as a career, but parts of it as a practice. It’s quite beneficial for me as well. 

How do you keep that connection or awareness of that practice?

These small examples, like about the bubble wrap. I think I’ll remember it forever. 

The reason why you remember it for the rest of your life is because it’s true. And you agree with what’s wrong with yourself, and then someone gives you a solution. So you’re like, “Oh, my God, that’s really helpful.” So there’s no way I’ll forget that.

When he told you, Oh, you better use both sides of the paper…

I think there was also a little bit like, it’s just paper. Pretty spoilt. They only cost, you know, a cent. But it’s the attitude, right? It’s not about the paper. It’s about the attitude.

Can you tell us about mineral paints?

So my Sifu (one’s Master teacher) first told me to go to Nepal and study under this Yellow Sect Painter. As an introduction, I could stay at the monastery. But then, before my Sifu passed away in 2014 – I didn’t learn about this until after he passed away – he had asked Norbula, the guy who lives in Sikkim to teach me and this is actually a huge honour.

He said, “You don’t really need to teach her how to draw or paint, teach her about the mineral paints.” Because I guess it’s uncommon to use mineral paints. We’re all very devoted to this Sifu. So basically, everything he says is a must do. So, I mean, Norbula, he doesn’t know me, I don’t know him. But because he honoured Shamarpa’s words, he would go out of his way to teach me.

How was the instruction?

So it’s an apprenticeship. Because he has to fulfil his commissions, he would have people, his students, helping him. Basically, people would learn through helping him fulfil his commissions.

What was the studio or set up like?

When I went to Sikkim, there was one man who was directly learning Thangka from him, and helping him colour his Thangkas. And there was Anukar who was from Finland – she’s helping him do other projects, not the Thangka, but depending on what’s on call, I suppose. 

And then Norbula’s daughter also helps him. I learned that he has several projects around the world, painting monastery walls, murals. So what he does is when he gets to a place, he would host a class. And then he would get to know people who might be interested in helping him for the local projects. Over the years, I think he’s collected many students from places like Poland or Russia or France. So sometimes they would fly to different destinations to work on a project together.

What are mineral paints?

So mineral paint. So when I was in Sikkim, I saw Karma, who was the man who was learning from Norbula. He’s like 28. So he was painting some clouds, and you know, it was like a tiny brush. You’ve always heard about Thangka – it’s so laborious, you have to paint dot by dot by dot, right? 

The reason is because basically mineral paint is you grind it up to a powder form. It’s supposed to be so fine, like baby powder. You then mix it with the glue. But the thing is the mineral doesn’t actually dissolve, it’s just so fine that it becomes a paste. So when you put it on the paper, the glue is supposed to hold the powder on the paper. But it’s not technically dissolved. So if you spread it out, it’s like you’re trying to paint with sand.

 So if you want to get a painting to be perfectly even like a printout, the only way to do it is to do the pixels. That’s why they do it dot by dot.  

Karma was telling me, “Yeah, this cloud takes one week, and this one takes another week.” Because if you do one layer, the colour is not solid enough. So you have to do another layer. So that’s the reason why Thangkas take so long. At least the proper ones. But I mean, these days, a lot of people use acrylic and that’s a lot faster.

So when you go to study with the teacher again, how does it work?

The first time I met Norbula was in Gaia, India. During the Monlam Prayer Festival, like a week of praying, pilgrimage. This is like 2015/16. 

There was a beggar on the street asking him for money. And he just slapped him on the head and was like, “Why aren’t you at school?” You know, he’s the type of like, the grumpy old man who gets to do anything he wants, like that kind of guy.

But he’s actually the kindest person because when he says something, or does something, he has your best interests at heart. I feel a bit bad. I mean, he’s been urging me to go see him because he’s 82 years old. So he’s like, I want to do this before I die.

You obviously can execute and do very contemporary paintings from your private commissions on very different subject matter. Do you still do that?

My training is in oil painting. I studied in England and then the US. So it’s all Western art and oil painting based. I also studied in Beijing for two years. So it’s a more realistic Russian approach to oil painting. 

You studied in Beijing? 

Yeah. Oil.

First time around, whatever. I didn’t learn much. But the second time around. I had a really good time because it was just a collection of random people in class. There was like 12 or 13 of us.

And we had like 44 year olds, watercolour teachers from Guangzhou Academy of Art. We had a 22 year old who just graduated from university. A half-French, half-Chinese girl who doesn’t know what she’s doing. So it was a really good mix of people.

We got along, we chatted, discussed art, and everyone shared the passion. It wasn’t like, Oh, I just had to graduate.

We were all there to learn painting. So I got a lot of appreciation for oil painting, which I didn’t get before.

It’s just talking to friends, you know, they would be “Oh, look at this artist, look at his book, do you see this part? You know, this means, it’s very thinly painted.” We would talk about stuff like, “Oh, look at this colour. So cool, how he’s done it. Look at the brushstroke. That’s just so nonchalant.”

Like stuff like that. So that was a good learning experience about art – about oil painting, like the execution. 

Your previous training was more on the concept?

Well, definitely in LA, it was more about concepts. That’s why I went to Beijing. Because I felt like I finished my studies, but I don’t know how to paint. So I went to Beijing, just to learn how to paint.

5. A step at a time

What’s on the horizon? 

Going forward, I intend to do a solo exhibition, which I haven’t done before. Because previous ones have been group shows. Because before, I was just so busy dealing with teaching and setting up this business. My personal development of paintings and design is the short stick now. So I’ve got to do a little more until everything’s on par with each other. I think that’s how I feel at least. 

I think I’ll do more spiritual stuff, because it’s what I want to develop further. 

And would that include murals?

Well, I have to do one mural in the future, but it is already in the works.

It’s at the monastery at Sharminub in Nepal. So before my Sifu passed away, he had asked me to paint a painting. He didn’t specifically say mural, but basically, “You have to paint a painting in the lecture hall.” He told me what the painting has to be.

He’s passed away, but I just need to complete it before his reincarnation comes back.

What was his brief, so to speak?

It’s based on a passage, I think it’s a poem.

So in Buddhism practice, they have different bhumis. Bhumi is like a level. So when you become a Bodhisattva, meaning you’ve gained some kind of realisation, then you’re the first bhumi Bodhisattva.

And they’ve categorised it into 10 different levels of realisation. It’s classified like that from the seventh bhumi to the eighth bhumi. Beyond the eighth bhumi your realisation would be spontaneous. 

So the passage describes the stage from the seventh bhumi to the eighth bhumi. It’s described as a swan that’s flying into the horizon, leaving land flying into the horizon, and he turns his back, turns his head back. And his beak is moving, he’s saying something to kind of instruct the other swans who are still on land – “You know, this is how you do it.”

So that’s the image I have to create. 

What’s your dream? 

Well, I think I’m just happy when people can read the meaning behind these paintings and be like, “Oh, that’s cool. Kinda agree with that.” So that’s pretty nice.

Postscript on Jacqueline’s first branching into product derived from her art –

The shawl idea came because of the Khata offering. It’s a Tibetan custom. It’s like a respectful gesture. I want to do a silk shawl, and maybe cushion covers and other stuff. Like Home Accessories. Yeah. But I’m the only person working on it. So it’s gonna take time.

All images are from Jacqueline Shiu unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 20 January, 2019 at Jacqueline Shiu’s studio.

---

You may also be interested in:

The Fun in The Journey: Chat with Jacqueline Shiu

When you talk to people about this thing that they do, whether it’s baking bread, or you know, like whatever it is, they say the most incredible… Like, they have these incredible, rich interior worlds around that apparently simple thing of like baking bread, and they say the most gorgeous poetic stuff that you would just never have thought of in regards to baking bread. These worlds inside people. And I guess the intensity of feeling and thought around people’s vocation – that, I really enjoyed.

Anna Gleeson, on conducting interviews for Ha Wan Pao

Over the years, I’ve found that Anna’s a very interesting person and am excited to share our chat-like interviews in two parts with you. This one starts from the beginning, through the various pitstops and projects that has led up to now.

Also check out our other chat: Crappy Imperfect: In conversation with Anna Gleeson.

1. Australia hometown: a traffic light
2. Dresden: nerd no longer
3. East Berlin: bleak yet beautiful
4. New York City: darkroom – pinhole – paper-pulp
5. Japan was its own project
6. ART. AUDIENCE. EXHIBITIONS
7. Ha Wan Pao, the birth of a community project

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads

Tell us more about you. Who you are, what brought you to where you are now.

So I’m Anna Gleeson. I’m an artist. So what brought me to where I am now is, you want the long version? 

Yeah, please.

1. Australia hometown: a traffic light

Sure. So for a start, I grew up in a small coal mining town where there wasn’t really a big visual art scene, or possibly even a visual arts scene at all. But from early on, I really liked looking at the world, I was really intense about staring out the window during maths class and looking out the window during long car trips. And so my kind of my interesting visual stuff came really early just from sheer enjoyment of looking. 

And then I had an art teacher that I really liked in high school, her name was Emma. She was really encouraging. And then I guess I never really thought about being an artist at that age, because it was just so foreign to the world I grew up in – a tiny town. 

I remember when we got our first our first traffic lights. (Whoa.)

We used to ask my mom to drive that way through the traffic lights, in case they would turn red. And we would get to stop at them. And that would be so exciting.

We didn’t have a cinema. We didn’t have bookshops. You know, it was just like, but what one thing that we do have was we had this TV station called SBS, which still exists in Australia. And they used to show a lot of really interesting cinema on TV. 

• 

• 

So one of the first things I wanted to be when I grew up was a filmmaker because that was one of the only sources of interesting visual culture that was around was watching movies on SBS. 

Yeah, so I was like, I decided I wanted to be a filmmaker when it came time to actually go study. There’s a really good film school in Sydney, but they don’t take people straight out of high school. They take people who are already in the film industry.

So I ended up doing this kind of compromise, which is I went to art school in the film department. In the film department it was called Electronic and Temporal Arts. And we did video, video installation, and film. That kind of thing.

And I’ve worked out very quickly that it was not for me, like filmmaking is a real team enterprise and I’m just kind of not a team player. 

Okay. 

So I kind of drifted towards the photography studio, which was downstairs from the lab. 

I guess before that I also I did in high school an exchange year in Dresden where I went to a high school that was really focused on art and music.

2. Dresden: nerd no longer

What is the style like in Dresden in contrast to where you were growing up?

Yeah, it was just a different world altogether. For me, it felt like I came from this really tiny town where there was nothing going on to Dresden, which is really quite a cultural place.

In my high school in Australia, I was this nerd that like to still talk about art history during recess, and people used to laugh at me for that. And then when I got to Dresden, I was like, not intense enough for how intense they were about…

Yeah, so it was just like, Whoa, was a whole other… For example, I played the violin. And in, my high school in Australia, I tried to keep that a secret. I didn’t want anyone to know I played the violin. When I got to my high school in Dresden, people were like, “You play the violin? Cool! You should join our orchestra!” 

Wow, that’s such a contrast. 

I was like what!? It was so weird!

So did you join the orchestra?

I did, but I wasn’t good enough for it. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, going from being the only fish in the pond to being in a much bigger pond. 

So I guess, in visual style. I can’t really say a lot to the visual style of, I just kind of wasn’t really exposed to too much visual art where I was growing up. So it was more like the contrast between nothing and something. 

You studied in Sydney, but then soon after you were living in different cities.

When I graduated, I was really into photography, I moved to Berlin. And I did that just because I already spoke German, because I’d had that exchange year. So I decided to go and have what people call a gap year, I guess, in Berlin. While I was in Berlin, I was taking lots of photographs, I was kind of trimming them in my room to cut down to the piece of the image that I liked, and sticking them in a little book that I made myself, kind of doing that kind of project.

So your year in Berlin was focused on looking and taking photographs, and cataloging your version of Berlin.

Yeah, exactly. Berlin is a really interesting city. And it was at that time changing quite quickly. 

3. East Berlin: bleak yet beautiful

What year was this? 

It was the year of September 11. So 2001. So I was living in the former Eastern part of Berlin.

And there are these really strange landscapes kind of, you know, abandoned factories and falling down houses, that kind of stuff. They’re really quite bleak, but beautiful, open landscapes, I guess.

So I kind of felt like I was documenting the moment of Berlin the way it was at that time. And just keeping it like a little time capsule sort of thing.

I’s funny how that is seen in your more recent work like the landscapes of Australia or, the project that you did with your daughter?

What’s the project that I did with my daughter?

I mean, her photo book you actually published.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely you can, it still kind of fits. 

Recently, I even had an idea of something I wanted to do with photography that I was like, “Oh, am I allowed to go do a photography project?

After all these years and I was like, “Well, yeah, why not? Still got the camera! Who’s going to tell me no, right?” 

4. New York City: darkroom – pinhole – paper-pulp

But from there, I moved back to Sydney. Shortly after, I moved to New York. And in New York, I continue to be interested in books. And I did a bunch of internships.

One of them was at the Center for Book Arts. And the other one was at a place called the Dieu Donné Paper Mill. It’s like an amazing paper-making studio where they work with artists, and they make all kinds of art using paper making as their foundation. 

It’s really worth looking at their website. As they have some really big names to come through there. They make really beautiful stuff.

And they have a bunch of Master papermakers that are there. The artists come in and go like, “I want to do this!” and they make it happen. I was the intern, I was just hosing stuff down and stuff. But I liked just being around it.

So what did you do at those two internships?

Just like whatever needed doing. Sweep the floor, hose down the paper making felts you know, nothing interesting.

But it really informs your work now too. Because you do the paper pulp work. 

Yeah, yeah. And because I did, I had this memory of being in the studio one day when they were couching a really thick piece of paper. 

What’s couching? 

All it means is you lift up this frame and it’s got paper pulp sitting on it and then you kind of couch that onto a felt. It’s like transfer.

I just remember seeing this really thick layer of wet pulp sitting on a felt and it was just like, it just looks yummy!

So yeah, and then I did come back to paper making projects, paper pulp painting, which my husband always says, “Say it Fast Five times!” Paper pulp painting! Paper pulp painting! ….

Did you make art while you were in New York?

I was doing some other stuff. In terms of those internships, It’s like I was learning how to make books at the Center for Book Arts. And at the paper making place I was supposed to have like a one day in the studio in return for my labour, but the studio was too booked and I never got it.

I had built a pinhole camera. And I was taking these really dark street photographs using my pinhole camera and I turned our tiny bathroom into a dark room; I was developing in there. (Wow.)

And what else was I doing? It’s kind of the only project I remember doing during that time, but I was there for like three years or so. So I must have been doing more than that.

How was New York then like when you were there, in contrast to say where you’re from?

It was cold, and people were tough. I was really culture shocked when I arrived there. Like the cold is dreadful.

It felt, for me at the time, it felt like a city full of the world’s best brightest overachievers, who knew exactly what they were doing with their life and I was just there like, “I have No idea what I’m doing with my life.” That’s how I felt in New York was just like, “I’m the only loser here.”

Who was in your circle? Like, who did you hang out with?

Who was in my circle? God, hardly anyone.

You in your dark room and your pinhole camera. *laugh*

I was in my darkroom with my pinhole camera. Yeah.

It was cold out. It wasn’t the best time. I mean, I think New York is a wonderful city, but it wasn’t a wonderful city for me at that time.

I did really enjoy the museums.

Was there a favourite one?

ALL OF THEM.

I used to be at the MOMA a lot. And the Met.

What did you like to see?

I don’t know, I don’t think I can remember.

And I think at that time, I still wasn’t really thinking of myself as an artist, I was trying to think of some other thing that I could do, that would be more sensible, like graphic design or something. 

So I wasn’t very rigorous in the way that I looked at art or thought about art.

I would just like go wandering through a museum and probably never read a wall tag. My god, I still do that. 

I kind of go galloping through and wait for something to hit me. And then something hits me. I spend a bit more time with that one work, but I don’t. Yeah, anyway. Still like that.

At what point did you realise or decide that you weren’t going to do the practical practical route of a graphic designer or whatever?

Only like 10 years ago, in Hong Kong. So it took a really long time to get there. 

5. Japan was its own project

So from New York, there was a few more stops … It was New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong.

You know, living in Tokyo was kind of its own project. I needed to learn Japanese, and I guess something that’s a really big thing in Japan is the intersection of Craft, Design, Art. And so I kind of was just, interested in that whole thing in Tokyo. 

I set up a language exchange with a friend so we would meet every Friday and one week we would speak Japanese, and the next week would speak English. And she used to plan the outing so she would find an exhibition or a shop that we would both be interested in and then a coffee shop nearby. So they were like these really nice little curated visits around Tokyo. And my friend Nobuko – she’s really, really cultured, really tasteful. Yeah, so that was great. 

And I just really enjoy, you know, it might be somebody that makes umbrellas by hand one week, and the next week, it might be like a museum show. It was kind of all kinds of stuff. 

While I was in Japan, I was doing some print-making, some kind of making books and notebooks. I was still trying to find something that might be sensible to do. And I was like, maybe I can sell notebooks on Etsy or something. 

I was trying to make these blank notebooks that had hand-printed covers and sell them on Etsy.

But you know me, I’m really crap at marketing. So that didn’t work. I remember showing them to a friend of mine Emma White, who’s an Australian artist. And she said, “I just feel like, you probably could put something in the books and there would be more interesting.”

I went, “Oh…” So then after that, I did actually make a couple of edition-ed artists books with content.

Content of your art?

Yeah, one of them was a book called Goodbye Shoes, which was about a whole collection of shoes I had and then I had a problem with my foot with a swollen nerve. And I couldn’t wear most of my shoes anymore. I had to wear sensible flat shoes. So I made an image of each of the shoes that I was finding it hard to say goodbye to. 

A little bit of text. It was like a little love letter to my shoes that I couldn’t wear anymore.

Which was funny, because then whenever I sold it to someone, it was always a woman that was going, “Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Me too. I can’t get in a heel anymore. It’s heartbreaking.” Somehow that really tapped a nerve of a lot of women.

Are you gonna do reprints for those?

No, I don’t think I am. It’s a long, long time ago.

You know, and I probably still have some of the editions somewhere. 

They were actually Gocco-printed. You know what Gocco is?

(Nope.) It’s not in production anymore, but it’s a Japanese – It’s like silk screening for Dummies. But it’s all neat and tiny. You can do it on your kitchen table.

It’s like a little machine that you put that you can burn your own screens and it exists from – in Japan, people like to send each other New Year’s cards. And before personal computers were really a thing, people used to print their own use cards on their kitchen tables. Using these funny little machines. 

Oh!

So yeah, now they don’t do that. (Cool!) I still got mine! 

Excellent so you can have that going!

Yeah, the supplies, they’ve become super expensive and like almost collectibles. Like, I still have some of all the supplies. Oh I did actually use them not so long ago. There was a series of spotty fruit prints that I did for Odd One Out that I did use my Gocco for that. 

Oh, okay. Cool. 

Then what happened was, we moved to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, because I was lucky enough to be able to get my first studio out of the house randomly, because it had happened that our housing allowance was too big for what we needed for an apartment that we would live in.

So we bought two apartments from one landlord. Lived in one, and I used the other studio. And it was kind of because I just thought, “This is amazing! I can’t believe I’ve got a studio. This is like the dream!” And I thought I’m not going to waste this trying to do something sensible, like graphic design or like illustration or something that clearly is not working anyway, I’m just gonna do what the f**k I want in here! And so that was kind of the beginning of me, I guess identifying as an artist or, just having to admit where you can’t really call this anything except art.

So what was the first project that you put yourself / launched into?

I think I just did a lot of drawing and because I had a lot of space I remember that everything I’d ever made before then had been the size of two hands. And then all of a sudden I was getting these huge pieces of paper and sticking them into the wall and just doing massive drawings, but was all over the place like I was thrashing around just trying anything. I was doing some experimenting with dyeing textiles. I was experimenting with making garments out of knotted fabrics. 

It was in that period that I made the paper earrings.

Like I was really just doing anything that seemed fun without asking myself too much where it could fit in the world/ What possible context this makes sense in. I was just like, really – at play.

• 

• 

• 

6. Art, Audience, Exhibitions

So how did you move from play within your studio to showing the works to an audience?

You know, I kind of just did I think.

Like I was in there playing and, you know, a lot of what I came up with wasn’t that good. But I didn’t care too much. And at some point, I made something that I was like, “Actually I like this, and I want to show it!”

I kind of still work that way in terms of I just go into my studio, like, no one’s ever gonna see what I do in here, it doesn’t matter, I can do anything. Then if something actually ends up being like, “Oh, this, you know, this is something I want to show it,” then I try to find a place to show it.

So you’ve actually organised quite a lot of your own shows.

Oh, almost all of them. And you know, I’ve been lucky that I haven’t found that that difficult to do. I usually just ask someone I know, who has some space. But as you know, they’ve been in a lot of kind of no- art, not strictly art context, like in a clothes store, or in a coffee shop, or, you know, different places like that, although also in a gallery sometimes. 

And it was during that period, when I had that studio that I came up with the idea of publishing Ha Wan Pao. 

The idea came from Tokyo, actually. Because there was a neighbourhood in Tokyo, which I don’t remember the name off the top of my head.

But it’s one of the oldest parts of Tokyo that that managed to escape the great fire, the wars. It had all these little wooden houses. This neighbourhood is the place where craft has been kept alive for a really long time.

And I think probably still now you could go to that neighbourhood and find people, hand printing decorative papers, and making traditional Japanese sweets, you know, really old way and like all kinds of ceramics and all kinds of crafts exist and are alive in this neighbourhood. And there’s a real community around that. 

Apparently, the community around that came about because this neighbourhood was threatened by development at some point. And a bunch of women in the neighbourhood as part of their activism against the encroaching development, decided to launch a paper. And they went and interviewed all the people in the neighbourhood about the craft they were doing about their history in that area. 

Wow.

Yeah. And so this publication kind of became what the community was built around. It became something that brought people together and had all the different craftsmen be in touch with each other and make connections with one another. And the developers went away at the end.

It didn’t happen while I was there. And I’m not connected to it. It was something that I read about after the fact.

(Reminds me of Tsubame-Sanjo where two Japanese localities linked up to create more community and to promote their craft)

7. Ha Wan Pao, the birth of a community project 

But it was just the idea of, you know, I was still quite new in Hong Kong and wanting to build a community. And I thought this is a really nice way to do it.

I have always been much better at a one on one social interaction than a big group. So it just felt like something I could do. So I decided to make it about people who make beautiful things.

Because I wanted something kind of inclusive, and I feel like for me, beautiful things could be a sandwich or a pair of shoes or, you know, could be anything.

And I decided I was going to publish. I think I decided I was going to publish once a month. I published once a month for three months, and then I was like, “Oh god, I’m exhausted.” It was as if I could not keep it up. But I really enjoyed doing it.

I would just like set up an interview with someone and go and record it with my iPhone and then… It was exhausting because I was doing the whole thing – I was doing the interviews, I was editing the interviews, I was designing the layout. I was distributing the thing. So it was kind of it was a lot. (Yeah.) But I did end up keeping publishing it for 10 issues. And it was fun.

Yeah. And people really loved it.

Yeah, people really loved it. And it’s funny, I thought of it as being not art, like something else. But I do have one friend who kind of said, “Yeah, no, I think it is Art.”

She kind of went, I said, “It’s definitely not Art.” And she said, “Yeah, but is it though?” And so, I thought well, yeah, I mean, if I say so, it is, right? 

Yeah! Haha. So what did you get out of that experience?

Um, I got out of the house, and out of the studio, which at the time I just needed to do. That’s still something that’s a challenge for me is like I tend to just be a bit of a shut-in. 

You know, there was something that I got, which was – when you talk to people about this thing that they do, whether it’s baking bread, or you know, like whatever it is, they say the most incredible… Like, they have these incredible, rich interior worlds around that apparently simple thing of like baking bread, and they say the most gorgeous poetic stuff that you would just never have thought of in regards to baking bread. These worlds inside people. And I guess the intensity of feeling and thought around people’s vocation – that, I really enjoyed.

I used to have these paranoid moments when I was interviewing people were like halfway through the interview, I’d be like, this is so interesting. And I’d be like, “Did I really switch record?” 

Anna Gleeson

But in the end, what ended up happening was, it was inspiring, and I was like, well, I want to go do my thing. The way all these people are, so yeah, so that was the end of that. 

I see. 

Yeah. And then what was funny also was that I didn’t have a launch party, I was just like, shy, and I was never very good at promoting it or making it into something that would make money, although it always felt like it had potential because people really responded to it, and it got a lot of press.

And, you know, somehow, I had people around me saying you should be able to make this pay. But I never figured that out. And, you know, if I had been able to make it work as a tiny business, maybe I could have kept it going and hired someone to do this part or that part of it. But, I couldn’t work it out.

Just yet. 

Just yet. Yeah.

So from that, did you get a sense of the Hong Kong community?

I did. And it’s like, because I’m still a bit of a shut-in, the people that I knew from having created that project are still the people that I know, or like the basis of the people that I know, in Hong Kong somehow.

I did kind of create the project to get out of the house and talk to people that I like about the kind of stuff I like to talk about, and it really ticked all those boxes for me. It worked. What worked for me, which is the main thing, right?

Yes.

What are you working on now?

It’s a secret. I never talk about what I’m working on now.

Oh, okay.

I mean, that said, … But generally what I’m working on now is some paintings, some printmaking, some ceramics, some sculptures. So when you asked me to think about my work as a journey and how I got where I am. I thought, I’ve really gotten where I am by having been completely lost the whole time. 

And I’m still… I still go to the studio most days and feel like I’m completely lost. I do not know where I’m going. So I think that’s interesting, because it’s kind of like, you know, that’s not a story you hear very often. You hear this kind of like, you have to have a dream, and you have to go make it happen. It’s just like, I never had a dream. So I’m kind of the opposite of that.

But even when you say you don’t have a dream, per se, I feel there is some underlying kind of ethos or kind of driving theme. 

Yeah. there is.

There’s this curiosity. Like, I’ve just been following my curiosity, and I’m still following my curiosity.

Curiosity is the engine for achievement.

Sir Ken Robinson

And I feel like it’s also that community thing, because I remember you wanting to kind of create something that would pull together, more artists to kind of exchange and support each other. So I feel the community thing is also something (definitely) not necessarily in the art itself, but kind of in your, in your pursuit of life.

Sure. Yeah. I think that’s definitely something that I want to always build.

And like how you choose to display your art in very unusual places? (Yeah.) Why is that?

So it’s partly because they’re available. So it’s partly just practical, you know, I can do that. There’s no massive hurdle to overcome, I don’t need to have applied six months ago to do it that kind of thing.

And it’s also what you say is that I think art has something to offer people in the broadest sense. I’m not super into the idea of Art about Art, or art who’s only for an Art audience. I mean, I’m fine if people want to do that. And that’s totally cool. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s not my thing. 

I like the idea of being accessible. Not that everything that I make is for everyone. But that it’s out in the world, and it might kind of hit anyone in the eye. 

I find that idea more exciting than some kind of super refined, white cube space. I like white cube space too. But I think that there’s this, when I was studying towards the end of my time, at art school, I organised a group show of all of the people from the video film department.

And it was at our student gallery, which was in this little kind of like main street of the suburb. It was a shopfront space. We built frames for projection on the inside of the window. And we projected the works onto that front window such that from the outside, it was extremely visible and noticeable from the street. 

I just remember it being really exciting because we were getting all these reactions from everybody that walked pass. I remember a bunch of guys in a car that were hanging out the window going, “Oh, that’s f**king sick. That looks awesome!”

You know, it’s just like, and I loved it. I loved the you know, somehow kind of adding humour and excitement and kind of something beautiful.

Yeah, or just the idea that Art can be something that’s robust and that can survive out in the world. And it doesn’t need to be like handled with white gloves and put in a humidity-controlled cube. Yeah, I don’t know. But you know, I love white humidity control cubes also, so *laugh*

So when can we expect to kind of see your art next?

So the best place (to keep an eye out for things) is my Instagram: _annagleeson_

I do want to ask you to share about your drawer of work that you stash away and revisit. 

Yeah. So I have this thing where I think sometimes I have an idea for something and I can see it in my head. I’m like, “That’s awesome! I’m going to make it.” Then I make it and it looks nothing like what I thought was going to look like.

When that happens, it can be so disappointing that it’s tempting to go well, that sucked and throw it straight to the recycling. But what I like to do is stick it in a drawer until I’ve forgotten how I expected it to look. And I can look at it with fresh eyes. And I sometimes find that I go back through that drawer and go, “this is actually really great in some other way that I was not intending.” So I found that that’s really useful, because it’s like my own expectations can skew even being able to see something. 

That’s excellent.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

All images are from Anna Gleeson unless otherwise noted.
Date of interview: 4 December, 2019 via video conferencing.

Also check out:

Contemporising heritage and culture: Tsubame-Sanjo

I think of so many things in my life as a practice and I really like that idea.

It’s like I have an art practice. I have a yoga practice. I have a meditation practice. I have a parenting practice. It really works for me to think of things in those terms because it’s just like just keep showing up for it just keep showing up. And it’s not about like how it went today. Because if I make it about how it goes today, I can get really miserable because it doesn’t always go that well.

Anna Gleeson

I met Anna at a group show that Emily Sarnel organised. And then got to chat with her at a show she put up at Plantation by Teakha. Anna’s art works drew me in. Over the years, I’ve found that she’s a very interesting person and am excited to share our chat-like interviews in two parts with you. Anna is from Australia, lived in Germany, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong; speaks French as well as Japanese and founded a really ground-breaking publication, more specifically a zine when she knew no one in Hong Kong. Her art speaks for itself. Let’s begin!

1. Crappy Imperfect – Fragile Beauty
2. “I used to be Good Taste”
3. Third Culture-Normal
4. Idea Experimentation
5. Failure and Success

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads

I’m interested – what do you realise when you look back?

Anna Gleeson: When I look back…

And how that relates to the series of works that you’ve been creating. A lot of them has to do with body, body image … 

So specifically about their cardboard vessel ones? 

So they kind of came out of nowhere. Or they seem to come out of nowhere. I had a bunch of cardboard corrugated cardboard in the studio, and I’d plan to make these like, big shallow relief-painting sculpture things; like relief paintings that would hang on a wall. And I tried some and they were awful. Like, I was just like, okay – and that happens a lot in the studio. Like, I have an idea, I think it’s fantastic. I try it, and I go, “Oh, no, no, not at all.” 

But this particular day, I was really like, oh, and I was just like, “I suck.” You know, I was really like, “man, I suck at this. Who am I kidding?” you know. So out of nowhere, I guess I also had like a bunch of drawings of different vessels. It’s just like a thing that I like to do, because it’s calming and comforting to go and look at ancient vessels in museums, and I would always sketch them. So I had these sketchbooks full of these things.

And so then just like on an impulse, I just pulled out one of the sketchbooks, opened it to a page and started trying to make that vessel out of the cardboard. And I made one, and it was just like this kind of pathetic looking thing, you know, but it was like, “Oh, it’s got something,” and I put it somewhere in my studio. And then because my husband goes through my studio to have a shower in the morning. And he was like, “I really like that. I really like that thing.” 

And I was like, “Yeah, it’s got something right?” So I started making a bunch more and the process is really, it’s a little bit cathartic. It’s like you’re trying to take this material that doesn’t want to go into this shape and you force it in. I would be like on the floor, bending the cardboard over my knee or around my thighs to try to get the round shape and it was like this clunky kind – it would never be perfectly round. It would like bend here and then there.

So I just found like, I was just making them and I was really lost in the making of them. And I hadn’t made any sculptures before and it kind of – I think it freed me up because I felt like “Well, this is obviously not my work. This is obviously just me arsing around in the studio.” So I was just going with it and I made a bunch of them and then I really liked them. 

1. Crappy Imperfect – Fragile Beauty

And then looking back on them after they were made, I was kind of trying to articulate what it was about them that I liked –  

I noticed that they were kind of, they’re kind of pathetic and fragile looking. They’re like bad copies, you know, of these original antiques, which were absolutely gorgeous and beautifully crafted, and worth millions of dollars probably and then there are these crappy replicas – but that was what I liked about it. 

I liked it that they were crappy and imperfect, and fragile and beautiful. And so what I saw in it afterwards was that they had come out of me feeling crappy, and pathetic, and imperfect in a studio, like that day where I was like, “I suck at this!!!” And then I sat down and made one. So looking back at it, I was like, “Oh, it’s like, the works are teaching me that I’m imperfect. I’m still beautiful. You know, I’m still like, you can keep me, you know, don’t throw me away.”

So that’s what I realised, looking back at them. And I’ve noticed that when I’m working in the studio, I don’t know what it’s about the thing that I’m making, I never know what it’s about. It’s just like, I operate on instinct. And there’s just something that pulls me in a direction. 

Like, I’m curious to see what if I, I could kind of see, sometimes I can see where it came from, what it’s about, you know. Possibly I’m just making up the what it’s about, because it’s like, at some point, you get to the point where you share something on Instagram, and you have to say something about it, or you put it on your website, or you need a little essay in a catalog or something. So you have to find something to say about it.

You mentioned something about body image, and your relationship with your body as you were growing up.

I have an ongoing interest in the way that we look at women. So there’s definitely that in a lot of my works that are with women. They’re not about women, they’re about the way that we look at women, the way we objectify women.

2. “I used to be Good Taste”

I feel what is interesting is the pieces you’ve made has a sense of Japanese-ness to them. 

Yeah, I think so too. I did make them after having lived in Japan, and I do look back at the work that I made in my early years in Hong Kong, and you can feel the Japan in it. You know, you can feel the Japanese-ness and the colours are really subtle, there’s a lot of grey and … and it’s totally gone now. I’m just doing these books with these horrible clashing colours. It’s just like, “Whoa, this is Hong Kong! This is Hong Kong now!”

Like I used to be kind of “good taste.”

So what’s your taste now?

I don’t know. I’m really into colours that hurt your eye a little bit or like, (China colours!) you know, It’s like it is a little bit of Hong Kong. Like I’m into a little bit of ugly. I’m into like hot pink and …

When did you start delving into textures, and the materiality of things.

I do I remember there was a specific moment, and I don’t know when it was. But when I was younger, I wanted to be an illustrator. I was always working for “Destination- scanner.” 

Everything I made was like, “It’s gonna go on a scanner, it’s gonna be a digital file, and it’s going to be on screen or it’s going to be in print.” 

And there was a moment where I went, you know what, I’m sick of trying to be an illustrator, I suck at it in any way, I’m just going to be an artist and just do what I like. 

And part of that decision was everything doesn’t have to end up on a scanner bed. I can make things that are impossible to scan now.

F**k you guys! 

And so that’s part of what you’re seeing is this move towards materiality. And that I really enjoy. And I’m still working on paper, but it’s true that I have made a lot of work since then that they need to be photographed, or they need to be. I’m not really using the scanner so much anymore.

I think that was just me exercising one of my fantasy other jobs that I might, you know, in another life, I think I might be a ceramicist. Or own a cafe or, you know, how you always have those fantasy other things like, “Oh, I could totally be a, you know, I could totally be an earring designer.” So I was just having fun with that. 

Those earrings, I could see people wearing them.

I would totally wear them also. Yeah, if they were real size. 

I think I sold one or two of them. But they were a little tricky to sell. Because they weren’t really designed to be worn… because they were fragile, because they were kind of like, you couldn’t sell them as art because if you hung them on the wall, they’d end up squashed and mouldy. You know what I mean? 

They were just made of paper, you know what I mean? Like they were never gonna last. So you couldn’t really sell – you couldn’t sell them like you could a bronze sculpture. They are paper too, but they are a lot more robust just because they’re corrugated cardboard. And I’ve sold one of those. I think that my pricing reflected that because it’s still an ephemeral thing to some degree, like they’re not like some like archival, corrugated cardboard; it’s an old cardboard box. So they’re a lot more robust than the paper earrings, but still I don’t expect them to live longer than me. Or they might. 

I don’t know, but I feel like it’s an unknown. And so if I was selling a sculpture that was cast in bronze or some kind of proper arty material, then I would be selling something that I know that …

What are you working on? What are you exploring?

It’s kind of a secret. I never really talk about what I’m working on now. Sorry.

So how did you get to this point? You grew up in Australia, you lived in New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, how have the people you’ve met, the culture, influenced who you are? 

You’re also fluent in English, French, and you comprehend Japanese too. 

Yeah. 

For example, what you said about reading the newspapers (of different languages) you noticed that they have different perspectives.

I almost feel like you have an edge to see thing in more than one way. 

I think that’s definitely true. But I think that’s something that is easier to see about other people than about oneself coz it’s kind of like you can’t really see the culture that you’re in. It’s kind of invisible. It’s like an invisible soup that you swim in somehow, you know. 

Looking back, I can see how things affected me more easily than I can see what’s going on right now. Although there is, you know, what we just said about colour, like in Japan and Hong Kong. 

Do you see yourself as an Australian artist?

I don’t mind being called that – I think. I don’t know. It’s like, I feel I’m deeply Australian. And that really is who I am. But there’s something about Australian-ness, that’s a little fugitive, or it’s a little like, if you try to hold it up to the light, it doesn’t… It’s not like French-ness, where it’s like “we all know what that is.” Australian-ness is a little…, but it’s definitely a thing.

Australians say things like, “Oh, we don’t have culture, we just, you know, we just take culture from other places.” Or it’s kind of like, “Well, that is culture – the culture of taking cultures from other places is a culture.” You know what I mean? 

Australian-ness is just a little hard to see or define somehow. And then I guess the other thing is that, well, I have been away for like, 15 years now. So 10 years in Hong Kong, and I don’t know exactly how long I’ve been away. Let me think. But you want to know? It’s gonna age me. (Hahaha)

So in terms of how Australian I am – every second time I go back, I think, “I love it here. Everybody gets my jokes. I can talk to anybody. I just love this landscape. I feel so at home here.” And then, the next time I’ll go back, I’ll be like, “Ah, I can’t stand it here. These people are so Australian, and I don’t fit with this. And everything has to be a joke. And no conversation can be serious.” I get like culture shock every second time I go there. And then other times, I’m just like, I feel so … I don’t know. It’s weird.

3. Third Culture-Normal

I guess there’s a lot of people that I know in Hong Kong, most of my daughter’s friends are like, their mother’s Russian, their father’s French. And they you know, we have neighbours where the mother comes from Shanghai, the father comes from Switzerland and the daughters are born in Hong Kong. And so that kind of having a toe in a bunch of different languages or cultures, or in places geographically, is just normal. It’s just normal for me. I like it. I think there’s something about learning foreign languages that even if you’d never get … however far you get with it, it gives you another point of view on the world.

You say different things – it’s like in Japanese you meet someone you say, “Please look favourably upon me.” It’s a completely different emphasis. It’s about how you see me. Whereas in English you say, “I am pleased to meet you.” It’s all about me. 

Anyway, I guess that the same is true in, you know, images are a language too and colour is a language too and it’s harder to talk about, but different ways of seeing and different ways of representing things, styles – they all give you different points of view also. 

So that’s definitely something that I enjoy in terms of – I don’t really want to have a style, that’s mine and then all my work looks like that, because I just get bored. 

So I guess I am probably doing a little bit of, looking at something like a Japanese person would like with those dresses where everything’s really pared down and neutral colour palette and kind of refined and delicate, or like looking at something the way an Australian would, but I’m not really aware of it when I’m doing it. But it’s one of the things that I sometimes look back at and go, “Oh, that’s like a Japanese woodblock print, or that’s like a Hong Kong hair salon ad or you know?”

4. Idea experimentation

What keeps you going as an artist? 

Curiosity.

It’s curiosity. I want to see how it’s like. I have some glimmer of an idea, and I want to know, what’s that gonna look like. 

It’s like, I’m never doing something that, “I know what this is gonna look like, and I just need to execute it.” 

Or if I am, It’s never good. So it’s really just about, yeah, curiosity. Like the spotty fruit ones were just, I was thinking about “Yeah, we’ve got this box of organic fruit delivered every week for a while. And then we’re just gorgeous.” Every time we open the box and we’d be like, “Wow, it’s so beautiful.” 

I was joking with my husband, “Argh, I’m gonna end up like being a still life painter now. Because we get these fruits delivered. It’s all your fault.” (Because he ordered them.) And then I had this thing in the back of my mind about the half-tone dot when you print something with a Risograph, or old newspapers the way they separate colours or tones, and then it’s like dots. 

Kind of like Roy Lichtenstein, right? 

Yeah, he totally did that. He blew them up. And I really, I blew it up even further than, I’m bigger than Roy. I am going big! But I actually really love Roy Lichtenstein. Not the works that he’s best known for. But I really love the – he’s done a series of Greek ornamentation, and a series of brushstrokes, or like woodgrain. He’s done these ones that are just like mirrors that I just like, I love them. 

The ones I always see in museums are the ones done with dots also, but the subject matter is different. But the ones I always see in museums are taken from comic strips and it’s like, I’ve maybe seen them too much. I don’t really react to them. And the other ones I’ve only seen in books, but anyway, blah, blah yadda yadda. What was I talking about? 

Oh, yeah, so I was lying in bed. I was lying in my daughter’s bed trying to get her to fall asleep one night. I’m lying there in the dark, which usually goes like, “Pep per, pep per pep per…” And I’m like, “Okay, time to stop talking now close those little…“ “Pep per pep pe pep per..” you know, like that for like up to an hour. 

Just lying there in the dark, I just had this lightning bolt. 

Like, I wonder what it would look like to make those dots huge on a picture of still life, on a picture of those fruits. And I was just like, that would look crazy. I’m gonna try that! And then so that’s where it came from but it’s like, if I knew what it was gonna look like, I wouldn’t go – I wouldn’t do it.

When you make your work, how do you decide what you don’t like or what you don’t like. Or what is successful? What is not? What goes into that, like I’ll look at it later.

I don’t know what it is that makes it work or not work. But, I just know. It just hit some nail on its head or it doesn’t. 

5. Failure and Success

What do you do with that pile in your drawer? 

Yeah. So I have a drawer. There’s just a “Meh, that didn’t really work” drawer.

It’s just like, “meh this isn’t really doing it for me” drawer. I shove it in there.

And sometimes I’ll get it out like two months or six months later. Sometimes when I get it back out, I go, “Oh, this is actually, actually, I like this now. It’s not what I thought I was making.” I think sometimes what happens is, if you have too much of an expectation of how something is going to turn out, then the expectation stops you from seeing it. 

You look at it, and you only see how it falls short of your expectation. Same goes for husbands, friends. 

I think what I’m explaining is, that’s why the drawer works, because you shove it in a drawer. And by the time you get it back out, you’ve forgotten what your original expectation was. 

So you see it with neutrality? 

You see it with new eyes. And yeah, something like that. I think it also works to not have expectations and to operate based on “I don’t know, what’s this crazy thing even gonna look like?” I don’t even know, then you don’t have an expectation – is ideal.

How does that apply to other aspects of your life, that drawer?

I think I do it with my wardrobe. I have a “I don’t look as good as I think I thought I would, so I’m just gonna put this up in this top shelf for a while,” and then I’ll get it back down later on. And maybe I’ll be like, “Actually, this goes really well with…” Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if I do it so much in other parts of my life.

I feel like when you mount your shows, you’ve mounted quite a number of shows, you seem to just go with it. 

You mean, I just like exhibit anything? 

I definitely let things be a little bit unresolved. 

Like I will go into an exhibition, not completely confident or feeling a little vulnerable, even, about the work I’m showing. However, if I hate something, I will not exhibit it. If I’m really clear, like “This isn’t…” then I don’t, I don’t exhibit it. 

There was maybe one time where I set up an exhibition before having made the work. So it’s like I committed to it, and I was like, as an experiment to see how that would work. And it didn’t work that well. You know, I wasn’t as happy with the work that time. And since then what I do is I just work. When I have a bunch of stuff I like that kind of fits together, then I go commit to an exhibition or something. 

Why is it important for artists to show their work? 

It’s exciting. It’s artists’ communication. Yeah, it needs to land somewhere. Also, I love the conversations that you have with people around it.

Yeah, I mean, it’s yeah, it’s communication. It’s about making connections with between people. And that happens in exhibiting. I feel like the making art I can’t live without and the exhibiting art. I just do because it’s fun. That’s for me. I mean,

I really,

I want to be building community, also. You know, I want to have that dialogue with other artists and with people who are looking at art, and I love all those conversations. 

And I’m not going to have them alone in my studio. Or I do sometimes if we’re honest. But it’s more fun when someone else…, you know, so yeah. So that’s it.

Last last last question (as Anna had to shoot off to her next appointment). What is success for you?

It’s not something I really think about much. I think that I feel like I’ve chosen a career that’s more about, more about my relationship to failure. You know what I mean? It’s like, I feel like the extent to which I can be with failure in my life, in my studio, In my work

is

that’s what my whole art practice hinges on. If I can’t be with my own failure, I can’t work somehow. I don’t know. So I guess I think more about failure than success. 

Wow.

Yeah. Success, I guess, there’s just so many narratives existing in the culture and in the media around success and that I’m like, “Meh.”

So you focus on the process.

Yeah Yeah!  

And I think of so many things in my life as a practice and I really like that idea.

It’s like I have an art practice. I have a yoga practice. I have a meditation practice. I have a parenting practice, you know, and it’s like… It really works for me to think of things in those terms because it’s just like, just keep showing up for it – just keep showing up. And it’s not about how it went today. Because if I make it about how it goes today, I can get really miserable because it doesn’t always go that well.

Okay. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much.

All images are from Anna Gleeson except otherwise noted.
Gleeson’s earrings work photos from website of Australian Embassy, Tokyo.
Date of interview: 17 January, 2019 at Fringe Vault.

You may also be interested:

Pearl Law’s Ultimate Top 7 London Noms

“Ea’s a real-life Ninja!” says a friend of mine. I can’t agree more. I knew of Ea’s adventures through our Rolfing sessions, and had always been curious and amazed that her life seems so free from the rigidity of what I had known life to be. Very glad for this chance to find out more.

Hop-scotching from Denmark, Tokyo, New York, London, Hong Kong – in an off-sequence way bought an apartment even before she arrived in Hong Kong, finished school, starting her practice in her mid twenties and Ea continues evolving since.

We cover Aerial arts, bodywork and clients, relationships and grief-processing.

Sit in with us and enjoy.

1. Hello New Adventures
2. Soft-Landing London
3. From Rolfing to Aerial Arts – Hong Kong calling
4. Plans of the Unexpected
5. Healing and the Hardest Grief

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads: How long have you been in Hong Kong?

Ea Holm, the real-life Ninja. A rolfing professional. Former aerial arts instructor.

It’s 11 years now. I was in New York for six years, very on and off because I never had a proper visa to stay there. So I had to leave once in a while. And then I went to London, where I actually did a bachelor’s degree because when I left Denmark, I never finished my bachelor’s degree. So I basically didn’t have a bachelor’s. So I went to London, did a bachelor’s degree and worked as a massage therapist. In New York, I had taken my massage therapy training, which was a very good, a very high qualification for massage, which was really, really helpful for me in London to have that. So I had my own massage business. And then I went to university. 

Where did it begin?

I am from Denmark. In Denmark, I was studying music, because I was trying to become an opera singer. That was really, really important to me. And then I started to have some health problems that were affecting my voice a lot. So in a sort of stroppy fit I was like, “I’m leaving Denmark! I’m leaving singing. I’m never doing this again!” And that’s when I left. So I left in a bit of a dramatic way where my dreams in Denmark didn’t work out. 

So was that around your Early 20s?

Yeah, that was when I was 20 years old. And back then when I was sad, I didn’t know what to do with my life, I had this dream that I went to Hong Kong. And I was happy in the dream. I’ve never been to Hong Kong, and it was humid and it was warm and everything that Denmark is not.

Did you have any concept of Hong Kong? Why would it pop into your dream?

I was really fascinated by Asia. 

For some reason, both Japan and Hong Kong were somehow very fascinating to me. I’ve seen pictures, but not actually pictures of Hong Kong, mostly highways and skyscrapers. 

That just came out very clearly in my dream. I didn’t go to Hong Kong straightaway. But yeah. That was when that idea went into my head. (Wow.) And then instead, I went for a very short trip to Tokyo to find my Asian dream. 

And there I met a guy. My last four days in Tokyo, I met a guy. We met out partying, and we were probably out partying for about four days. And then I went on a plane and left and I went to Sydney where I was meeting some friends. And he was then moving to New York. So he wrote to me and said, “Do you want to come?” And that’s how I ended up living in New York. I basically flew over to have a relationship with a man I’d known for four days.

Was there nothing at home to like, kind of keep you in Denmark, so to speak?

No, I was really ready for a new life. So I was sort of like up for anything. 

1. Hello New Adventures

So how was New York?

New York was fun and fast. And ageing.

Ageing, but you were so young when you were there. 

I was so young, but I felt before I left that if I don’t leave now I’m going to age really fast. I should get out.

What made you get that sense?

I think it was just, I found it hard to sleep there. 

The energy’s very harsh. People are very, very harsh. And in the beginning, it was hard for me to take. 

I was kind of bubbly, happy Danish Girl, like, you know, friendly to everybody. And actually, you can’t be friendly to everybody on the street in New York. Weirdos are gonna follow you. If you try to talk back, answer some people who talk to you because you’re polite. They’re just gonna follow you all day, you know. You can’t do that. You have to be, you have to turn quite harsh. 

I think that energy got a little heavy for me at some point. I mean, I didn’t actually leave because of that I left because I couldn’t get a visa to stay. But after that was determined – that I was going to leave, it was quite clear to me that like, it’s probably quite good to leave. Because this place – it makes you too hard. Like it makes you a little bit rude. A little bit rough. 

I was in New York for six years, very on and off because I never had a proper visa to stay there. So I had to leave once in a while. And then I went to London, where I actually did a bachelor’s degree because when I left Denmark, I never finished my bachelor’s degree. So I went to London, did a bachelor’s degree and worked as a massage therapist. In New York, I had my massage therapy training, which was a very good, high qualification for massage, which was really, really helpful for me in London to have that. So I had my own massage business. And then I went to university. 

In New York, I also did massage after I finished, but it was sort of like freelance, but in London, I sort of had my practice. I wouldn’t call it my business; It was literally just me and I rented a room hourly. And then I had clients and I wasn’t working for somebody. 

2. A “soft-landing” in London

How old were you then?

So I would have been 26. I was in my mid-twenties when I came to London. And then stayed there for four years. So three years for the degree and one year extra where I was doing so great in my business that I didn’t feel like leaving.

What were you studying?

It is quite weird. I studied linguistics, which is one of the most useless things you can study, I think. Everyone thinks you’re going to learn a lot of languages, but you don’t learn a single language. You literally just learn different theories about languages and you learn how to see patterns in language data, and compare it and make theories on it. So it’s very nerdy in a way. In a way very mathematical. And if you have a type of brain where it’s easy for you to see patterns, you’ll do very well.

So did you do well? 

I did very well. And that’s why I stuck with it. Because after I didn’t really know what it was when I signed off.

After I started, I was like, this is really weird. I don’t think I can use this for anything. 

But then I got my first assignment back, and I did really well. And I thought, maybe I should stick with this because it might just be a really easy way of getting a bachelor’s degree. Since that was my main aim was just to have a bachelor’s degree, I wasn’t really too fussed about what it was going to be in because I really didn’t know which direction I was going.

And then seeing patterns actually has really come up in your work!

Yeah, exactly. Like being a little bit OCD like, “Things have to be in that place” (anatomically.) It’s actually very useful in my work as a Rolfer.

How has it informed some of your choices and some of your work?

Like from my education, like the seeing patterns, definitely I can use that a lot in my work. Relating to like, my, my way of making choices, I think that’s more just from my mom, to be honest, that I just – if I have an idea, and I get a good gut feeling, I just go for it. I’m not too like, should I, shouldn’t I. I literally always very clear when I get some idea that this is what I need to do. And then I just do it. I think that’s just my mom. Very, very gutsy woman.

What was your experience like in London?

London was, in a way, very kind to me. It was easy for me to get started there. It was very easy for me to build up my massage practice. I kept meeting people who kind of helped me on the way randomly. I made a very good friend in my studies who really helped me to get rid of some of that New York hardness I had built up.

How?

Oh, he was just very good. It was my gay best friend. He was very good at taking it slowly. He was Italian and Ethiopian. He would always take my arm and be like, “Now we stroll, stop running.” And he just forced me to walk slowly.

And sometimes he forced me to skip class which I would never do and be like, “Now we go and just have ice cream.” Instead of having class it just literally taught me a little bit – how to have fun, how to be a kid, how to live gently, I’d say.

And then I also went to see a psychotherapist in New York, in London, who really helped me on that path as well. She helped me a lot on how to see things from other people’s perspective, how to always consider well, their situation could be this so act with kindness and so on where it was very much in my New York spirit to just be like, “No, it’s like this. And I see it like this. So that’s how it is,” so that was what made a very big shift in me – My best friend and my psychologist.

So leaving Denmark, you didn’t have all that kind of garbage in a sense.

Yeah, I definitely learned a lot of hardness there (in New York). I wouldn’t say I was perfect back in Denmark. I was kind of a confused teenager, but definitely I had more of a kind approach to life in Denmark.

How does kindness outwards relate to kindness starting with ourselves?

Well, that’s the thing, right? That if we, if we give other people the benefit of the doubt, we might also be kinder to ourselves. If you’re always like, “Why is this person doing that? Why is he walking so slowly? Why is he in my way?” and you might think, well, his leg might be hurting, you know, then you also can give yourself when your leg is hurting, you can be a little bit kinder to yourself and say, “It’s okay, you can. Yeah, you’re in people’s way. It’s okay.”

What experiences in London kind of gave you back more of your humanity? 

Yeah, I think I just had really close friends. We were just really… it was sort of like I got a second chance of youth in a different way where it wasn’t so much like wild partying and so on. 

It was just very, a nice community, a nice group of people who are now spread all over the world. So I don’t really have anything in London to visit now. It was like a soft place to land after New York I would say. I did not enjoy the weather at all. Did-not-enjoy like the city, the weather itself, that wasn’t actually something I enjoyed. But I enjoyed my friends, my work my, my life. 

3. From Rolfing to Aerial Arts – Hong Kong Calling

So what made you decide to leave that kind of comfortable, nurturing, soft landing in London?

First of all, most of my friends were leaving anyway, because the university ended. And then I had actually met a guy that I fell in love with, who was a Rolfer. And we started dating, and he started to teach me stuff, especially because he wanted me to work on him. So I actually learned an incredible amount from him, which I’m very grateful for. And he encouraged me to do the Rolfing training. 

Now things didn’t work out between us. And when they didn’t, I was like, it’s my time to go, because you’re going to start something else. And then you’re going to meet another something, something else that keeps being something that stops you from going to Hong Kong, which has been in the back of my mind since my dream when I was 20 years old. So I thought once he and I broke up. I thought, okay, it’s the time to go. You go do your Rolfing training in Munich, and then you go to Hong Kong.

How long have you been doing Rolfing now?

I’ve been doing Rolfing for 11 years. So I basically finished my training and moved to Hong Kong. So what really drew me to it was, I was really bored doing massage, I was really bored just kind of doing patterns with people’s bodies at the end, because I’m, like, coming with the same problem every single week. And it’s not getting better, you know, I just like I was just like a maintenance person.

And then when I met my ex-boyfriend, I was like, Oh my God, this man is making changes in the body. This is like, this is what I want! Like he’s actually making a difference in people’s lives. Like, you know, when you’d leave after the session, you’d feel it feel kind of like a different person, even a different outlook on life. And I was like, This is what I want to give people. I don’t just want to like, give them a rub and a little chat. And then off you go, you know?

You mentioned you’re looking into counselling…

Rolfing is very physically hard, it’s very physically demanding. So I always have the thought, oh what do you do when you get older when you can’t actually work physically like that anymore? And I always in the back of my mind thought I’ll probably do some psychology course and some type and try to transition into that. And once I looked into it, I realised you actually need a full-on master’s degree, actually you need to do it properly. So once I looked into it, I started to think about doing it properly. 

Basically, I want to be able to, to not work physically when I get older. 

And I feel like in my Rolfing work with some clients, not with all clients. But with some clients, we already get into some, they end up telling me some quite personal things. And I very often felt like I would like to help them more, I would like to be able to dive into that. But a lot of what they teach us in Rolfing is you can listen, or for empathy, and so on, but don’t try to be a psychologist. Do not try to dig into the things because things might evolve in a way that you don’t know how to handle because you don’t have the training. 

So I’ve definitely had times like that where I felt like I wanted to say something but I do not go there. And I kind of want to go there. So yeah, first I thought about it just as a way to help the particular clients who bring something. But then as I could feel I’m getting older, It’s getting harder sometimes to work the amount of hours I do so I thought maybe I should actually think about it as a transition into something. Something where I can sit down in the future at some point.

There must be several different modalities that also kind of tap into kind of, would you say like subconscious?

Well, there’s a lot of approaches within psychology and counselling, a lot of different, like, different styles, different ways of doing it, and different schools of doing it. And this particular degree is a general degree, you learn a little bit about each of them and you you learn enough to be a counsellor, but without following a specific one, you can take bits from each or afterwards, you can then choose to go more in depth into one of them. So it’s very general. And since I didn’t feel like I knew which approach I like better, I thought, let’s just go with a general one. 

And the reason I chose counselling and not psychology is basically because of my high school. In my high school, you could choose the language track or math track, and I chose language. And when you choose the language track, you don’t have physics, math… There’s a lot of the science subjects that you just don’t take. And to actually get into a degree in psychology, you need to have those science subjects. So if I was going to do psychology, I had to basically redo high school courses. And I was not really keen on that. And then I realised with counselling, you don’t need those. So cool. So that’s why I chose counselling over psychology. You can charge a little bit less than a counsellor, but that’s fine by me.

You also do aerial arts. Where did that come into the picture? 

Oh that came out of the blue. I have actually sort of stopped performing now and I only teach a little bit on my rooftop in Lamma Island. I don’t I don’t teach them in a studio anymore. 

This is how it was – I was in London. And as I was about to leave, I went to New York to visit friends. And we did a flying trapeze class together, which I hadn’t done before. It was just completely random – it was my friend’s birthday, and we went to do that. And I was like, “Wow, this is cool!” And then I got obsessed with just looking for a flying trapeze place.

What is a trapeze?

A trapeze is where you have two platforms up high, and then there’s a bar – there’s a guy hanging from one bar from his legs, and then the flyer will then swing out from the from the other bar, do some flips in the air and get caught *Clap* like by the catcher from the other bar. 

So that takes a lot of space – and it actually takes a lot of people to run a class. 

So when I came to Hong Kong, I was like, “Where’s the Flying Trapeze school!!?” And there is none because it’d be crazy expensive running a flying trapeze school here. The amount of space you’d need, and yeah, it wouldn’t really be feasible cost wise. 

But in all my Google searches for that, I found an aerial arts school because that obviously comes up when you put trapeze in. And then I thought, well, if there’s no flying trapeze, I’ll do this. And then I just started taking classes as a student, and it had just started in Hong Kong, where the first aerial arts schools have just opened. So it was all very, very new. There were not many of us in class, we kind of became very friendly with the teachers, we started hanging out doing whatever we felt like, training together. And I got quite obsessed. And then when I finished my job in the clinic I was working in, I finished to start my own practice, then that’s when the aerial school moved to a location where there was an extra room. So I basically started my practice in that room. 

And that meant that I put into my rental contract with them that I could come in and practice in the mornings when nobody was there. When nobody else was using the studio, I was allowed to go practice. I paid an extra fee to be able to do that. So that meant I just came in like three hours before work every day and practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. Because I got really obsessed with it. And before I knew it, I was doing shows.

Wow. So you started aerial arts in Hong Kong with your instructors?

Yeah, I did. And I learned that I did all the things I tell people not to do, I learned from YouTube. (Oh, you did?) Yeah, I did. We all did that. Hong Kong instructors did as well because there was really no one here who had really gone to a three-year circus school program. So we were all sort of just figuring it out. (Wow.)

What’s the allure of aerial arts for you?

For me, it was particularly because I had almost had a lot of dance inside me. I’d hear music and I would already choreograph in my head, but my feet cannot dance very well, they’re really, really useless! When I try to do turns on the floor, I fall over. I’m really not a very good dancer! 

And I could never do the things that I had in my head. And so when I found aerial arts, I could. I could actually express my emotions to music, and it actually looked decent somehow, taking my feet on the ground out of the equation was the key. So for me, it was just that all this dance I had inside me that I felt stuck; it had had an outlet all of a sudden. And that was amazing.

What was it like doing shows in Hong Kong like for aerial arts?

Oh, it’s really quite exciting. It’s fun. It’s, I’ll say in Hong Kong, it is easy in the sense that the clients, they are generally not looking for really difficult ,strenuous tricks, they generally want pretty poses, the hair flowing around the fabric flowing around you know? And you can actually make something very pretty with very easy tricks. So you can make it without being at that level. And it was really fun. We were treated well, generally, you know, they take good care of you, you’re given a room to sit when you wait for the shows that give you some food (sometimes.) And yeah, it was quite a positive experience. 

Sometimes, of course, you’re worried about rigging, because a lot of these places. Rigging is how the attachment point is set up so that you don’t fall down and die. 

Of course, that’s always a concern, especially because between me and Chinese riggers, there’s a language barrier. So you’re trying to kind of make sure that you’ve actually gotten the specifications you have asked for, that there is enough capacity to hold the weight you have asked for up there. In some venues, you can’t check it yourself because it’s too high up like it’s already set up. So you can’t get up there. So you have to sort of trust. And that was sometimes I had a little bit anxiety about that. I usually didn’t have anxiety about my own ability to hold on. But I would have been excited about the rigging sometimes.

At what height do you guys typically perform?

Most venues in Hong Kong, I’ll say we use a silk that was six to eight meters. And so you sometimes go all the way to the top, but you’re usually like a meter or two down from that. But I have done some concerts where the highest I was up was 21 meters. And that was a little tough. 

What’s the kind of level of development you feel for aerial in Hong Kong versus neighbouring Asian countries.

I think neighbouring Asian countries are very similar. I know that in places like New York or London or so on, you have proper circus schools where you do a degree in circus, you can do a bachelor’s degree in circus. 

And it’s like seriously three years of hardcore training from the best coaches. And that’s obviously a whole different level than what we had. 

But yeah, I feel like in Asia, it’s kind of growing similarly. I have a few Facebook friends around in Shanghai or Vietnam, it looks like it’s quite similar to here, the way it’s growing. 

I think one thing that does concern me a little bit about the way it’s growing is a lot of people are starting studios, and they are not always so aware about the safety with the rigging, like what they actually need to have safe rigging. And that can scare me a little bit. Because it’s so popular now in Hong Kong, there’re so many studios. And sometimes I get a little bit worried when I see videos on Instagram. I’m like, I don’t know how that was put up. That’s the only thing that I find worrying. But otherwise, I find it really wonderful that it’s just spreading so much, and people are enjoying it so much. I’m seeing so much talent in Hong Kong now. Some people I’ve never met, people that are like the new generation.

So aerial really gave you expression or creativity that you didn’t have, and how might that relate to your work, or your life?

I felt like it was feeding me. Like when I work on clients, I’m giving out a lot of energy to the clients. And the aerial fed it back into me, it was like a stress relief, almost a meditation. Because when you do it, you have to concentrate so much, because obviously if you don’t concentrate, you can fall off. And if you fall off, you’ll break your neck or something like that. So that level of concentration and then at the same time when you’re in the zone with the music and you’re free-styling it’s almost like you go into a meditative state. And I’ve always been terrible at actual meditation sitting still meditation, I always sit and go, when is it finished? So this was like that. That was really my meditation – doing Aerial.

Over the years, in massage and Rolfing, how do you feel you have evolved? 

I’ve definitely learned a lot more about how different everybody’s reality is – not just mentally, but also physically, that one person might come in looking like this, like completely bent over and be crooked and say, all my friends told me I should come but actually I feel fine. They have no pain.

And then you have someone where you can only find the tiniest little imbalances, but in a world of pain, and that you really need to keep measure only of where they are in their body to themselves. In other words, you really cannot compare. I don’t like the idea that, for example, our arms should lift however many degrees and so on. There’s no standard. It’s whatever that person’s standard is, it’s what they feel like in their body. It’s how functional their body is. It’s how happy they are in the body, how pain-free they are. That’s the standard you should be working with, rather than too much of this is how it should be in the human body. You know?

Yeah. Do you feel like you’re seeing different types of cases over the years?

I find it quite interesting. I find I get the people that I need to learn something from. (From their bodies?) 

From their bodies, like I will often get people with the same problem at the same time. So I’ll get three new clients with an SI joint problem and I’m like, Okay, I guess I’m supposed to get better at SI joint problems now. And then I learned a lot from them. And I learned things from one that I can use on the other, and so on. Yeah, I find it often that I will suddenly have an influx of people with the same thing going on.

I think that is kind of how it works.

I’ve definitely learned a lot more about how different everybody’s reality is – not just mentally, but also physically. You really cannot compare. I don’t like the idea like our arms should lift with however many degrees and so on. There’s no standard. It’s whatever that person’s standard is, it’s what they feel like in their body. It’s how functional their body is.

Ea Holm

You are sort of attracting the clients that you need to learn something from and that you’re ready for.

Recently I’ve had more clients in recent years with sort of chronic pain, inflammatory conditions and so on where I’ve really had to learn that it is so different from person to person and you must enter into that person’s reality to help them. That you can’t just be like, Oh, this stretch is good for that. But it’s like, but for that person, that stretch really is going to make the condition worse. And to really respect everybody’s reality for their body. If that makes sense. That’s something that I in recent years have really understood. And I think that was the influx of more chronic pain people that made me understand that.

I feel like working on chronic issues is really deeper, too, right? 

Yeah, yeah. 

Do you feel that like in the work that you do, you can enable them to also take responsibility for their own wellness as well?

To some degree, yes. It really depends on where they’re at in their journey. But with most people, they feel empowered when you give them some homework to do, or that you, you maybe give them a cue. After the session, I’ll have people stand up, and I’ll try to see what I feel like they’re missing, I might say, breathe into this place, or try to imagine your head is lifted up like this. 

And for some of them, those cues can really give them something they can hold on to when the session is over, so they can go, Okay, this is starting to come back. Okay, I’m gonna think about this. Or I’m gonna, you know, I’m going to use this little cue that I got. So for some people, that’s very beneficial, very empowering. Yeah, for some people, it’s just sort of I’ve often talked to people about their diet, and so on, even though I’m not a nutritionist or anything like that, but people will ask me thinking I know everything. And once in a while, you can actually see that.

I remember I had a client that I don’t remember I made the most amazing changes with, and I was actually a little bit frustrated.

Then a few years later, I met a friend of hers randomly who was like, Oh, you’re that you’re this person. And she was like, you made a huge change in her life. And I was like, really? Yeah, you changed her diet, her life, completely. And I was like, Wow. Okay. I felt like I actually kind of didn’t achieve what I wanted there. But yeah, some, it seems like sometimes the conversations you have with people actually makes them want to make different changes or seek, it’s not that I definitely tell them, You must eat this and this and this, but they might go look for someone who will actually tell them what to eat. Sometimes I’m able to give them that, that motivation to do that. (Signpost)

How fulfilling do you feel with what you’ve pursued in your life, I guess going back to you know, like the beginning of you know, just pursue whatever makes you feel very fulfilled. 

Yeah. Well, that’s the thing that’s very interesting that I kind of fell into bodywork. It wasn’t something that I dreamt about during my whole childhood. It was just sort of random that I fell into it. And I actually feel like it is such a blessing. You know, I’m actually really enjoying it. I really like when you, when you see people, they felt something shifted in their body, and they go, Oh, that’s really nice. Alright, well, I can breathe in here. That’s really fun. I’m gonna keep doing that, you know, this, then feels really good. Of course, it can also be frustrating when you’re stuck with a client and you’re not getting the changes that you want. But that’s part of life, right? That’s how you learn.

4. Plans of the Unexpected

How did you fall into bodywork?

Oh, that was in New York, because I was constantly trying to get a visa. So basically, it’s quite difficult to get a working visa in New York. And at some point, after 911, they got quite strict on letting people in and out of tourist visas, which is what a lot of people did then. We went into non tourist visas and just worked illegally. And there was lots of jobs illegally as well, it wasn’t really a problem. But after 911, they suddenly started stopping everyone and saying, What are you doing here? Why are you staying? So why are you coming so often? So I thought I needed a visa of some type. 

I researched a lot of different options for schools that would be affordable to pay for because I wasn’t actually intending to go to the school, I was just going to sign up for a school to get the visa. So I found this massage school and I was like sweet, I’ll sign up for that. I had to pay the first tuition fees for the visa to get activated.

You were planning to not pay the rest of the course!

I was. Well, I was just sort of let’s see how it goes and see how if the visas can stay active. But that was right when me and the boyfriend I had in New York we split up. I was so, so sad and depressed. I was crying, crying, crying. It was like the end of the world for me. And to distract myself, I thought, why don’t you go to the school. You’ve paid for it anyways, just go class, it’ll distract you, you won’t lie here and cry on the sofa all day. And I was staying with a friend. And that friend was also having trouble in her marriage. They’re fighting all the time. So I actually couldn’t really stay on this sofa all day. It was quite hectic and miserable. 

So I took these classes and just sitting there learning anatomy became my lifeboat for this broken heart. It was just literally what I needed. I would just sit there and memorise muscles. It just gave me purpose and meaning. And so I went through almost all of this schooling. A year and a half of schooling that I went through, without even thinking I was probably going to use it for work, just because I was interested and I liked it. When we got towards the end, I’m like, Oh, I might actually work as a massage therapist. So I really fell into that. That was completely random. I didn’t intend to do it. I discovered that I liked it as I did it.

It’s kind of like how you got into the linguistics program? 

Yes. It’s like, I want a bachelor’s, but I don’t know what I want to study. And I would look at the list of things. It’s like, No, no, no, no, that sounds hard. That sounds complicated. And then linguistics just sounded like something with languages, and I like languages. So I didn’t realise that it’s not quite what you learn; you didn’t learn any languages. So that’s what I signed up for. And I had quite a wrong idea of what it was, but it worked out for me. 

So you kind of followed what you like, or love, or potentially interested in.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then sometimes it’s just luck as well. With massage school, I think it was very lucky that that’s what I went for, and not some other random type of training that I maybe wouldn’t have enjoyed. 

What do you love about Hong Kong? 

Oh, I love so many things about Hong Kong. 

I love the nature. I love the city. The heat, I’m never cold here. I know that people don’t like the heat and the humidity. And it can be a little bit much at the height of summer. But honestly, overall I’ll take it over cold any day – Any day. And I love the mountains. Denmark is completely flat. And I’ve always been fascinated by hills. Love the beaches, there are palm trees. You know, it’s just that the nature here is so incredible. There are trees growing out of buildings. It’s the nature is just taking over everything. I love it. And then right next to all the nature you have the city full of opportunity. 

And it is even though it’s like a roaring huge city, you have this gentleness I find. There is this I think especially during COVID It’s so so clear to see this. The sense of responsibility for the community, which is just so beautiful. You know, like here, you don’t have people arguing they don’t want to wear masks. There’s really this, Well, I wear the mask to protect my neighbour. That’s just a given. And I think that’s like something we’re really missing in the Western world.

5. Healing and the Hardest Grief

You asked me about the, my losing my dad and so on in the questions. With that, I would just say that I think it’s really important to sort out your shit with your parents early. 

Because we just, we just started to sort it out like two months before he passed and I feel like it was such, if we had had a little bit more time we had actually had the chance of a much closer relationship. But we were both stubborn for many years. And the relationship wasn’t that close.

Who moved first?

I’d say he did, actually. But so one of the big obstacles to us being close was his wife that she was mentally ill and he was denying it my entire childhood. 

It was very gradual, her mental illness came. So I will say when I claim she was mentally ill when I was like 12. I think that everybody just thought I was a jealous stepdaughter. But I actually was right. And of course it was fair that he denied it back then. But he denied it much, much longer into her illness where it was really clear to everybody and that was really what was in between us. 

She didn’t like me, and I didn’t like her. And that he wouldn’t admit there’s something wrong with her that was like the barrier between us and them. So at some point, he admitted it. That was when we started to soften where he was like, Okay, yeah, she is really mentally ill. And I’m actually a caretaker now. And it’s actually really hard. 

That was when we started to soften a little bit, but it was still very hard for me to see him because she was always there. And now he couldn’t actually not be there because she couldn’t leave her alone. 

So, two months before he passed, he actually came to Hong Kong to visit me. Because he had asked the government if he could get a space for her in a care home so he could go visit me for a week which was something he had, he always said, I can’t leave her so I can’t come. You know, so that was really his reaching out the arm to say, Okay, I’ll ask. I’ll ask for a place in a home for a week for her so I can come. 

That was really the turning point where we started to have some conversations we should have had many years before. It was just the beginning of us both melting. Then two months later, he passed. 

Was it really sudden? 

Yeah, yeah, he was quite fit and fine. I mean, he would walk around Lamma Island and no problem in the hills. He was chopping wood for his fire every day. And he actually got a stroke while chopping wood. So that was Yeah, so it was quite sudden, he was 69. Good health, still playing football every Sunday, you know. So it was quite a surprise. Nobody expected it.

But in a sense, sometimes it’s like when the time is the time it will happen. Right? Like it’s almost like there was no. Like, I don’t know what you could have done.

Oh, no, I couldn’t have done anything. Yeah, it was it was more than I would have loved for us to have a little bit more time to enjoy this softness we had suddenly built between us. And this is understanding of each other where we had both just been like, stubborn before, you know. 

But at least we got there before he passed. That’s definitely something. I just wish we’d had a little bit more time. Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything I could have done to speed that up. Because he needed to come to the conclusion that it was okay to put her in a home for a while to actually give me the time that I needed.

So there was closure, which is great. 

Yeah, it was. It was.

What about Thor that passed?

That was the hardest grief of my entire life. I mean, very different grief from that with my dad – they were very different. Because he was like my child, he was with me 24-7. You know, he was on my body or he would be around my feet. I would never not hear his breathing, or smell his scent, or feel his little nose, pop my leg, you know, he was just, and he was like, my son, really.

So losing him even though you know, they’re gonna go before us. You know, you know, dogs are not like children, they’re not gonna live after you. But it still was the hardest thing I’ve had to go through. And I was so happy that I was closed down for business when he actually passed because I would have, I would probably have needed to take two months off to recover.

Are there tips or things that you feel like, you know, like would be helpful for people who are kind of going through that loss?

Yeah. Which I mean, for me, it was really important to not try to distract myself. To really let the grief be there.

To go, okay, I’m feeling this and this is an expression of love. To not think it’s terrible that you’re crying, and it feels like your soul is just crushed.

But instead of going, oh, let’s watch a movie! Let’s do this! To literally just sit with it and sit and talk to him and write about him and I have this little pendant now with his hair. I have one with his ashes. And those really helped me. To go for walks and talk to him and pretend that he’s there. That really helped me, even though it might seem a little crazy. So I still put his little towel he used to eat from down when I feed my other dog Sif. Just because I feel like I’m still doing that to honour him. And I think it’s just important to let yourself do those things that can seem a little bit crazy because they’re actually really helpful for processing the grief.

Do you feel you’re sometimes getting signs that he is around? 

Yeah, yeah, I sometimes get these little flying white things on my walks that just look like his fur. I always see that as a sign that he came to visit me on the walk. Yeah. He died of pancreatitis of old age. So it was to be expected. But it’s tough. Very tough.

Well, that’s the thing – I kind of fell into bodywork.

It wasn’t something that I dreamt about during my whole childhood. It was just sort of random that I fell into it. And I actually feel like it is such a blessing. You know, I’m actually really enjoying it.

I really like when you see people, and they feel something’s shifted in their body, and they go, oh, that’s really nice. Alright, well, I can breathe in here. That’s what’s really fun.

Ea Holm

All photos are from Ea Holm unless otherwise noted.
Date of chat: Saturday, February, 2021 via video conferencing.

Where My Heart Leads – Food for thought:

• What experiences from your profession or trade have you gathered over the years that added to your depth as a person?
• Do you notice the connections between our bodies, minds, and emotions? What have you noticed and how have you used it more/better than before?

---

You may also be interested in:

Growing up in a Hippie Commune

My original chat with Jacqueline focused on her art career. Two years on, her adventure has taken new developments. What piqued my interest was what she said “The destination is the excuse to take the journey.”  Here I sat down with her to learn more of her adventurous and fun-loving side and a candid sharing of life, work, and pursuits.

1. Serendipity – things come together
2. Work and relationships as learning ground
3. Tenacity and renewal

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads:

Can you tell us how you got from art to business?

Jacqueline Shiu, founder of her eponymous brand and painter

My trade is painting. But since being back in Hong Kong, I was thinking about how I could promote my artwork, how do I get into galleries. 

Of the few gallery openings I have been to, I really didn’t enjoy that social environment. I felt it was very superficial. Also, as I was younger and quite shy I wasn’t very confident about myself, so I never made it into the scene. I was teaching most of the time – I stayed teaching, and I stayed learning just as a student, so I wasn’t a professional or I didn’t see myself as an artist. I had always called myself a painter. Because I think the connotation of being an artist is so vague?

Do you consider yourself an artist now?

More so. I’ve learned to appreciate art, through my exploration in psychology, or I guess, you know, being more mature and older, I know better what art means. And its value. And it’s easier for me to admit that I’m an artist.

How did you come to the understanding?

Probably through my learning about Thangka painting, and spending time with my Thangka teacher, I got into the spiritual meditative side of art. There’s a lot of psychology, talking about Mandalas and the visual representation of something deeper. So that gave art or images, paintings, a bit more meaning. So once I can associate the meaning behind images, and that I’m not just trying to paint a picture, I’m trying to create a meaning. That makes it easier to associate myself as an artist.

What led you to diversify?

The combination of me not seeing myself as an artist to begin with. So 10 years ago or more, with Chinese contemporary art, the prices were getting absurdly high, which is really exciting, of course. But at the same time, I feel like that’s so superficial and false, and feels like people are liking art for the wrong reasons. 

What did you feel they were liking art for? 

For the investment value or money laundering that kind of thing. And, of course, with art, the value is not quantifiable, and hence, the price could be so crazy. But as an artist, if you ask me, do I want to sell my painting for 10 million? Of course, I want to. So there’s a contradiction between what is right and what I want, and what’s living honestly, and not honestly that kind of thing. And I thought, doing small businesses, selling things in itself is quite an honest way of making money. So that’s one reason. 

And also my guru. I remember having a conversation with him once and it was right around when I went to college, and I told him, I was studying art. He said, “Oh, why don’t you study business?” And it got me thinking, there’s nothing about me that’s business. So I wouldn’t even know where that idea came from. But I also kept this in mind and thought, maybe he’s trying to say I should do business. So there are lots of things coming together.

1. Serendipity – things come together

How did you take the first step?

So I remember the first time after I learned about Thangka in Nepal. When I came back, my friend commissioned me to do a painting. “It just needs to be blue and big.” So she’s Catholic, but I painted a Mandala for her, and well, she decided it’s not what she wanted or whatever. But I was happy to keep the painting. So I did. A lot of people saw the painting and they were all like, “I can see this on a scarf. It’s kind of like the Hermes design with the symmetry.” So that was another reason. And my then mother-in-law runs a charity in Nepal. So she traveled there quite often and she was saying, “Oh, I know a scarf maker. They make the most beautiful scarves ….” So all these things kind of came together and gave me the idea. 

Was it hard? Or was it easy? 

It wasn’t hard. I’m sure I had my frustrations, but it was quite fun. To me, the most fun part was designing the logo and the packaging, the nitty-gritty things – the wedding planning part of the business. The frou-frou, the small things, so that was really fun. And then, of course, it’s trying out different factories.  

Can you tell us more because it sounded like you really looked for something that aligned with what you wanted to give birth to. 

I did. I first looked in Nepal. I also went to Shanghai, and I sampled with them. And then of course, there’s the trade fairs and trade shows in Hong Kong. So there are tons of factories I got in contact with. And I’ve never been to Mongolia. Even though I sampled from several factories in Mongolia. I did go to Shanghai to visit the factory. I went with my sister and the staff brought us to some local noodle shop. So that’s the fun part of going there and doing all these things, including chit-chats with my sister in the hotel room.

You mentioned that some of the most memorable moments have been visiting factories.

Yeah, that has been really fun. In China, I spoke with the staff, because I think the factories are bigger, the owner doesn’t usually do the sales. So in that sense, it was less pressure because you’re dealing with staff. But in Nepal, I was always dealing with the owners, because the factories are small, and they do the business.

My then mother-in-law has a friend called Samir. Samir introduced me to a guy that he works out with at the gym who has a Kashmir factory. His company is called The Kashmir company. Meanwhile, I found another company online called The Kashmir Industries, to which the owner’s name is Samir. I made a bunch of appointments to meet these factory owners, and I guess I got Kashmir Industries and Kashmir Company mixed up. So they all came to meet me at the same time. 

I met with Kashmir Industries first. And I shook hands with him and I kept talking, “Oh you’re a friend of Samir…” and he had no idea what I was talking about. But he didn’t catch that I was talking about the wrong person, because his name was Samir. So he just got confused. I just kept talking. And then the other guy came to pick me up. But by then I had left with the first company. My then mother-in-law who was with me in Nepal thought I had been kidnapped, because the other guy showed up, and I wasn’t there. So there was a huge fiasco. 

What was your criteria in finding your business partner, or what you call the surrogate mother to create your scarves? 

Fortune sticks.

I asked for signs. And I have to say that I had very promising signs for this particular factory. 

Did you have an inkling that this was the most probable one? 

Yes, it was quite good. The first sample they made was really, really good. The problem was, because it was the beginning stages of sampling, I didn’t know what the standard was. So of course, their scarves are really nice. But it wasn’t until I saw the other scarves that I realised they’re actually really good.

So it helped that you actually did sampling with various factories.

Yeah. But of course, in the beginning, we had the samples, but I was still dubious, because, maybe every factory makes nice scarves. But it turns out, theirs is really quite nice. So as I went through all the sampling and factories, I learnt what makes the scarf better or worse.

2. Work and relationships as learning ground

How have you grown from working relationships? 

You really see the character of the people you work with. And you understand that everyone has different qualities. Some qualities you might like, some you might not.

So for example, a lady who helps with some of the sewing, I get to see a little more about this person and her life and that’s interesting. Then it’s also how you deal with this person. Because, under normal circumstances, she won’t be my friend. But now I’m put into a situation where I work with this person because of her other qualities. From there I get to see other parts of her which are valuable in ways I wouldn’t see otherwise.

Likewise with my factory in Nepal. In the beginning, I was so annoyed by how things were. For the first few factory visits, we had to take the car for half an hour, an hour, on a very shitty road, and it’s a very small, dingy car. And I was always getting carsick. And for the whole journey, the owner would talk to me about Hinduism, as though he’s trying to convert me. Obviously, I’m Buddhist. And I found it really annoying. I tried to have a conversation with him. But I realised it was pointless. Plus with the carsick. So towards the end, I was just nodding and was like, “Okay, okay, okay.” 

But then the relationship changed. Two months ago, he was telling me, “I’m very fond of the Buddhist religion.” And he was sharing with me some videos about Buddhism and some experiences of his life as well. That’s a nice, meaningful connection that I wouldn’t otherwise have if I’m not using this factory. So that’s the kind of relationship that I get to experience outside of my own social circles.

Because you’re working with different people, you naturally would share who you are, you naturally share your Buddhist experience or other things. In this case, it kind of opened him up to something new as well.

Yeah. And I’ve always been told that I am too honest with who I share information with. I try to say less. But then actually, I feel like it really isn’t who I am. And maybe I should just be more confident about telling people things. So I feel if there’s a part of me that opens myself up to other people, maybe that encourages them to be honest with me as well.

Being told you’re being too honest. Has it created problems or actually created surprises for you?

Well, not that I remember. I’m sure there are cases where I didn’t have to volunteer so much information. And maybe that made me less glamorous? I don’t know.

You think so? What if your genuine sharing is actually more inspiring?

I would like to think so. And, I think at the end of the day, you’re just who you are. Maybe you should have done this, maybe you should have done that. But maybe it’s just better to do whatever you do, right? Because there’s no measure of how much is too much. And how little is too little. So.

What did you mean when you said “The destination is the excuse to take the journey?” 

When I was saying that I was thinking of all the fun that I’ve had with the business. And sometimes I feel like, “Oh, you know, where do I want to travel? Of course, maybe I should go to Kashmir because I’m making cashmere.” So it’s almost like an excuse for me to go and have fun.” Yeah, forcing me out of my comfort zone. I guess it’s almost like planning backwards. Planning backwards, meaning make the destination fit the journey, or make the journey the priority. I mean, this is just one way of thinking. You can also think normally, which is, I want to go there. So I’m gonna take this road to get there.

What’s that destination?

So the way I see destination, I guess being Buddhist, or being a painter, I realised, the most fun part about painting is you feel like you’ve done something awesome (destination). And then, but always, always, always, you look at it again, it’s actually not that good. But then you chase for another awesome, and then it becomes mediocre again. So the fun part is the chasing part. The journey. 

So the destination is just, it’s like an oasis. You feel like you’re getting there, but you’ll never get there. And it’s actually the desire to get there. That’s the fun part. Because you will actually never get there. So that’s definitely the case with painting. Because there’s no perfect painting where “Oh my God, I’ve done this, I can never surmount my great work. So I need to stop.” You know, there’s never a destination. I guess it’s the same with life, money, and everything. Right? 

3. Tenacity and renewal

Is there anything else you want to share or add?

Well, I was recently divorced. So that had a huge impact on my growth as well. So everything that I’ve told you should be taken into consideration that my personal relationship had a lot to do with this growth, this revelation.

Did it set you free? Or did it give you an impetus to stand on your own? 

Yes. So basically, my life was, let’s say 50% spouse 50% work. Now it’s 80% work and 20% parents and siblings. So I’ve been a more devoted to my work since the divorce. And that also means thinking more for me. Rather than thinking more for let’s say me and my spouse, what are we going to do together today or tomorrow. Now it’s more like, what am I going to do for myself?

It must have been very tough. How did you pull yourself through?

I pulled myself through by knowing that I did the right thing. And that it can only get better for myself, in the future. Because I mean, I think all in all, as much as I cry very easily. And I seem to be a softy. But I do think that there’s a part of me that’s very tenacious. The thing is, if you never give up, then you can only get better, right? And, I don’t have a reason to give up. I mean, and luckily, I’m well-fed, I have family support, I’m making money. I love what I do, and I find it meaningful. So you know, there’s no reason for me to give up. So, all in all, I just feel like it’s going to get better eventually.

For this brand, you said you wanted to bring something to the world? What is it that you want to bring?

Let’s say I’m a customer, and I see this brand. I’m not going to be enlightened by buying a scarf. If you look at my pieces, you’ll just be reminded that, “oh, there is such a thing.” Just like you see a yoga center, you might remember, “oh, that’s where people meditate.” So just to remind people that these ideas are there. That’s one thing. But then, this doesn’t just apply to business, but also to being a human being. 

Now, whenever I come across anybody, I just have to remember I stand for Jacqueline Shiu. I stand for myself, I stand for my brand. So I don’t want to do shitty things and ruin my brand and ruin my reputation as a human being. I think if everyone does that, then it’s good. Right? What was your question?

What do you want to bring to people?

I mean, it depends how people like my brand. Some people buy one scarf. And that’s it. Some people are so in love, they end up buying my paintings. And maybe if I have a biography, they read it. So maybe in that sense, I can share a little more. I mean, a lot of the ideas that I’m sharing, they’re not original. It’s a compilation of other ideas that I’ve learnt. So I’m just a source of dissemination just like everyone else is in this world. So it’s just how far and wide you broadcast pre-existing ideas through your own kind of understanding. 

Cool. Thank you.

All photos and videos from Jacqueline Shiu.
Date of chat: Tuesday, 23 February 2021 at Jacqueline’s studio.

---

You may also be interested in:

Focus Which Way

An entrepreneur’s journey

Jump to section

1. New video game degrees. Back at school as an older student
2. Creative juices and lessons from the first launch
3. Modus operandi: What’s in a game and scaling the business

---

Karen Tsui, Where My Heart Leads 

Thank you so much for coming on for this interview with Where My Heart Leads. I’m really excited to learn more about how you got into what you do. And to tell us more about some of the challenges and learnings and lessons that you’ve had. So can you tell us a little bit about you? Where are you from?

Matt Knights, game creator, co-founded Protostar Games

I’m from Australia. I’ve lived in Australia for most of my life, mostly from the country, small town Australia. In terms of the kind of video games, and how I ended up in that field. I guess I first saw a video game when I was about six years old, something like that. I think the first one I ever saw was Pong. It was just a really basic black and white kind of game that was kind of its own console. So you would have these two little controllers called paddles. They’re like little wheels that you turn. You kind of control the two little paddles. It was just a two player game. And that was all it did. That was all that console did, basically.

I remember going to my uncle’s when I was about a similar age, maybe like seven or eight and he had a Nintendo. And I played Super Mario Brothers for the first time and the Legend of Zelda as well. I think while the adults were upstairs catching up, and talking, I just played Nintendo all day with my brother. And yet that must have had quite an impact on me. After that, I just wanted to play games, and I got really interested in it.

Were you a good student in school? 

I was, yeah,

Despite playing video games?

Yeah, I was really good. I was kind of a goody two shoes. A bit of an overachiever. Especially in primary school. I was on top of my primary school. In high school, I kind of fell off a bit. I think it’s because I was in this little country town. So it didn’t take too much to become the dux and that the schools were really small. So if you’re a little bit smart, you know, you’re probably going to do okay in their schools. But yeah, when I went to high school, for my last few years of high school, I was in a big boarding school in Brisbane. And I still did well, but I wasn’t like the dux. You know what I mean? 

So did you go into uni thinking you want to become a game designer?

No, no, not at all. I mean, that wasn’t even really on the radar – I was pretty good at science, and I really liked it. I did chemistry and physics in high school and I think I just always wanted to do science. And so I applied to do a science degree at the University of Queensland. And I got in and that’s what I did. About one year into that degree, I sort of combined it with an arts degree because I wanted to study Japanese. So yeah, I ended up doing a four year kind of dual degree. It’s like science and arts with a major in Japanese. So yeah, nothing to do with games at all. Actually, in that part of my life, I was still playing a lot. Well, way too many.

I played this game called Counter Strike. Yeah, it’s still pretty popular now. Now, it’s called CS go. But yeah, I spent way too much time playing that game. Really. I mean, I passed. I got my science degree and everything, but I probably could have done better.

What was so addictive about gaming? What is the draw about gaming you feel?

There are some games out there that are just so skill based. I guess it’s like a sport. And nowadays that is becoming much more of a thing, right? eSports. But even back then it was kind of like playing a sport, without unfortunately getting fit. But it had this real competitiveness to it. That draws some people in. And within the colleges at Uni, there were 10 colleges, each with about 100 to 300 people attending those residential colleges. And I think within every one of those colleges were at least 20 or 30 people that were playing Counter Strike for many hours a day.

Is there a stereotypical type of person for the game?

Oh, yeah, I think so. I mean, especially for that game. It’s kind of like a pretty testosterone sort of fueled game. I think the word “toxic” gets used a lot now. Yeah, for that kind of thing. Sometimes, it depends. Some people who played the game, like most of the people, my friends who played the game, were really good guys. And I’m still friends with quite a few of them. Yeah, and then some guys who played it, not so much. 

So did you get into your Game Design job right out of college?

No, so when I finished college, I had my science degree. And I had a degree in arts with a Japanese major. And I thought at that point, well, you know, I’ll probably try to get some sort of science job, research job, maybe at the university or with a private company or something like that. But my girlfriend at the time, Christina, she said, you know, why don’t we go to Japan? She’d also done six months of Japanese just as kind of an elective at university. And you know, that there were these programs, you could go over to Japan and teach English for a year or so just as kind of a break. So yeah, we decided to do that. We applied, and we both got in. 

We did that for 18 months. When we come back, that’s kind of where the video games thing happened.

1. New video game degrees. Back to school as an older student.

So what was the first job you applied for? 

So I actually didn’t really apply for any video game job. But I kind of fell into it. What happened was when I got back, suddenly there were these video game degrees that didn’t exist when I started my science degree. And I just heard about, ah you can do these video game degrees now. You know, to get into video games. And there are a few big companies in Brisbane at the time that were growing. And Brisbane was becoming a kind of a bit of a hub for video game development in Australia. So I decided to do a video games course.

I thought, I want to try and do this. I love games. I’ve always been really interested in it. And I want to try and do this, this video games course. And so I use the savings that I had from my time in Japan and I did this video games course. It was a two year course. They kind of fast track a three year degree over two years. 

What do you learn? What do they teach you?

It was really broad, like all kinds of stuff. The specialisation that I was doing was animation. But they would teach you all kinds of things like writing, storyboarding, things more to do with film than games even. We did some sound design, graphic design. Yeah. Lots of creative things like that.

Were you creative as a kid?

A little. Yeah. Yeah, I was. I wasn’t super artistic. Like, I’m still not really that great at drawing. I can animate. Drawing is not really my specialty. So that was always kind of a bit of a struggle. Because if you can draw well, that’s a pretty big deal if you’re going to be a video game artist.

So after that course, that got you into the first job?

Yeah, so I was lucky enough. By the time I finished, towards the end of that course. I think it was maybe because I was older. A lot of the guys and girls who I was doing that course with, they were just straight out of school. And they didn’t have quite as much of, maybe, investment. I guess their parents were paying for a lot of them to go through that course, they didn’t care as much or something. But, you know, since I was paying, I cared a lot about getting the most out of it. So towards the end of that course, I got an internship with a small, smallish games development company and I did a kind of two month internship with them. And that was like part of the degree, kind of at the end you would do like an internship.

And then after that I just stayed on at that company. They hired me. I was lucky enough to get a job with them right away and just carried on.

So that’s the job you stayed for for seven years. Prior to starting Protostar

Yes.

I remember you mentioned that you learned quite a lot at this job. What were the things that you learned and was able to kind of help you launch your own?

I can remember the first day I started at that company. And one of the tasks that they had us doing, there was me and a couple of other interns there. And we were doing backgrounds for a game. Just like drawing up in Photoshop, which is the 2D software package that we use. We’re just drawing up these kinds of backgrounds. And they were supposed to be like, cartoonish, but these, like, creepy kind of cemetery spooky looking backgrounds. And I was terrible, like, I was so out of my league. That, yeah, when we had the meeting, to sort of present our work and what we’ve done, there was this other guy who he’d been there for a few years, and he was really good. And just seeing my work put up next to his work was just so horrible. Yeah. I didn’t think I’d make it.

How did you get better?

Ah, I just kind of stuck at it. And yeah, I learned a lot on the job. I think that was kind of the key, right, was to just keep going. I knew that that illustration wasn’t my strong point. And I hoped that I would, you know, if I just stuck at whatever work was given to me and tried to kind of try to move towards work that I thought I would be better suited to.

So as time went on, at that company, I kind of moved from doing just illustration type work into more like, design, and visual effects, and sort of a bit more technical stuff. And I was just sort of naturally better at that kind of thing. So I guess I kind of stuck it out through those difficult times there. And I was lucky enough not to get fired, I guess. I mean, I was hard working. But yeah, the results were not really there. I don’t think.

---

2. Creative juices and lessons from the first launch.

It takes a lot of guts to be like, “Okay, I’m going to start my own.” What do you feel gave you the confidence to start your own?

So after being at that place for about seven years, I think what happened was, while we were there, we would often do some kind of prototyping and we would split up into little teams. We used to do this on every second Friday, or maybe like one day a month or something like that. We would take a break from our normal project, whatever we were working on at the time. (That’s kind of really cool to you know, get the creative juices going.) Yeah, yeah, it was a really, really good kind of break. And you could just see the energy of the place light up on those days. You know, everyone was excited. Yeah, it was great. So much energy. 

And I usually did pretty well with those little projects. Like, I would pitch an idea and get a small team together, like maybe three or four people. So we pitch our ideas in front of the whole company, you know, and then if people liked your idea, they would join with you and make your game over a few days. Or at least your prototype, you know. And I was pretty good at doing that. I was good at kind of getting a team together and kind of directing where I wanted the game to go.

So when it came time for us to decide, or when it came time when we decided to leave, there was one other guy who I’d done a few prototypes with. He was a really good coder. That was one thing that I at that time, I couldn’t do, I couldn’t code. So, yeah, he was keen to leave. And I was keen to leave. And I guess we’ve proven to each other in the past that we were capable of making a game together. So we felt fairly confident actually, in starting your own thing.

Has it been pretty smooth since starting your own company?

I wouldn’t say that. You know, we’ve had a pretty good run. But our first game didn’t do that well. 

The idea for that game was to kind of create something as quickly as we could, and put it out just as like, a kind of a test or just kind of to get something out there as quickly as possible. We didn’t want to try and make some, you know, masterpiece or something, with our first game. You hear that story so often – people try and do their own thing. And they want to make the most, the greatest thing ever, on their first attempt, you know, happens to game developers a lot. So it’s a classic thing. We didn’t want to do that. So we thought, okay, we’ll give ourselves three months to make this first game. It took four, so not too bad. The game was pretty good. It was hard. It did okay. Like it was critically well received. But financially, yeah, it pretty much bombed. 

We got a really good feature on the App Store. Basically, the best feature you could possibly get right? Back in those days there was a big banner up the top of the store worldwide, right? There’s nothing you can get that’s better than that. And so, that translated to about a million downloads in that week where it was being featured. So in that respect, it sounds quite successful (promising.) Right?

But the game monetised so badly. I mean, it was a free game. And the way that the game was monetised was with at the time just in-app purchases, but it just did so badly. You know, like, no one spent anything on the game. So yeah, so we learned a lot of lessons from that. And I’m really glad that we sort of made a game that we’re proud of, but at the same time, we didn’t spend a year or two years making that game.

Now, that’s a great lesson – to not be so gung-ho about, or stuck about launching the perfect product and just kind of get it out there. And, to test and learn from that experience and move on to a better one.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I remember there’s this story of a pot maker. I don’t know if you’ve heard that story. Think it’s like a proverb or something. Basically, it goes like, you know, imagine two guys, right, and they’re both trying to create, like, the perfect piece of pottery, the perfect pot, right. And one of them spends his entire career, trying to make the perfect pot. This one pot that he’s working on right, meticulously, yeah. The other person makes like 1000 pots, right. So the person that makes 1000 pots, you know, for his 1000 pot, he makes it in say, you know, 10 minutes, but it’s better than the single pot that the other guy’s been working on for his whole career.

I think about that sometimes. And yeah, I kind of think that there definitely is something to that story.

3. Modus Operandi: What’s in a game and scaling the business

We got that game wrapped up, and then we moved on. And we started doing some more prototypes after that. And, yeah, that’s when we came up with Sling Kong, which was our second game. So it was a bit of a modest hit. It wasn’t like, crazy sensation, like some games do become. But for a small two man team. I guess, for us, it was definitely a hit. And we’re still doing updates for it today. So it’s still got a lot of people playing that game. 

So why is that game so popular? Do you have a very good sense of what the market likes? How did you come up with a game?

So yeah, we knew that our first game was too hard. And we wanted to make something that’s more broadly appealing, but more fun for casual players. So that was one requirement. And then, at the time that we made that game, there are a few other games that kind of inspired us in terms of how to make money with a game like that, and how to be appealing with a game like that. So that the actual game mechanic of playing Kong is fairly unique. I mean, the game itself is not like a clone of any other game. That mechanic of the game is quite unique. 

But in terms of how the game monetizes, we took inspiration from other games that have come before us. And that helps a lot. Because those kinds of decisions about how to make your game make money are not the kinds of things that we’re that good at or that interested in. So it really helps that someone’s already kind of shown, this is how you can make a casual game make money, basically. And keep your business going.

As far as coming up with the idea and that kind of thing. We do like a little, a couple of weeks of prototypes usually where we try and make a prototype, basically every day. (wow) So the prototypes are really rough, right. But after a couple of weeks, we’ll kind of maybe pick one that looks promising and develop it a little bit more. If we still like it after spending maybe say a week working on that one idea. And we feel like yeah, there’s something here, this could be good, then we’ll go into production. And yeah, that we’ll just start working on it.

So prototyping for games is kind of like coming up with the mechanisms. And what happens next, kind of like a storyboard? 

Yeah, you could say that it is, it is similar to that. It’s like the kind of rough ideas we would build. Like in the case of Sling Kong, where, in the final game, you’re kind of sling-shooting a monkey or these other animals up this level of obstacles. In the prototype there’s nothing in the level except other little circles, and red circles are bad, and black circles are good. That’s the kind of level that we make it to.

So you launched Sling Kong in 2015. And then three years later, you launched Super Starfish.

Yes, yeah. So for the few years there between those two games, I mean, the first two years of 2015 and 2016, we were just doing updates for Sling Kong, and just adding characters, and adding different themes to the game and just kind of extra stuff because, we had all these players, all these people were playing the game. And we started a Facebook page and people were requesting. “We want more characters, we want more characters.” So we just kept making them.

What was your marketing strategy?

I don’t know. Yeah, we tried to do like these little videos when we first started on YouTube, you know, kind of a little bit about … insight into what it’s like to be a poor indie games developer. 

Yeah, we should really take them down. Those videos just took too long to make. And, you know, we’re trying to make games primarily. So we had to stop doing them. And I don’t think enough people are watching them anyway.

So yeah, we just focused on the games after that. But after a while, we thought, Oh, if we just keep updating Sling Kong we’re never going to make our next game. We’re just going to spend forever – updating – Sling Kong. And yeah, so we got sick of that. That’s when we first hired a couple of people to help us out.

Like a natural transition to have someone help you manage Sling Kong, and then you focus on your next creation?

That’s right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So we always wanted to stay really small. Because neither Dean, my business partner, or I wanted to, we don’t want to have a big company. We’re not managers. You know, we don’t want to manage people. We just want to make games. We tried to keep our team really small, so we don’t have to do any of that managing type stuff. But yeah, we did. We did need to hire some people, if we ever wanted to sensibly move on. That allowed us to start our next game, which was Super Starfish. And that one, that one was a little bit different.The idea for that game was kind of rattling around in my head in some form for a pretty long time.

But the thing that took a really long time to work out was like, What is the game? Like, how does the player control it? And how does the game kind of work? I knew I wanted to have fish in space. For some reason I like space. And I like marine animals. So I wanted to combine them and have this cool, trippy, space fish. Yeah, so that idea was there for a long time. And also, we had this visual effect that we knew how to do. And we wanted to use it. 

It looks really beautiful. The game. The colours.

Thank you.

Yeah. So a very early part of the game was starting almost with that effect and developing that effect, and getting it to work on a mobile phone and optimised enough so that it basically could work on a phone. Then we built the game almost around that effect, we thought let’s just use this for everything – the fish should make these colours swirl around and obstacles should make these colours and put these cool swirly colours onto the screen.

So are you more proud of one game over another? Do you have a favourite?

Yeah, that’s a tough question! I think I do like Super Starfish out of the games we’ve made. I think I would say that’s probably my favourite. That it’s the most complex, and it’s the most, kind of, challenging to play. I get the most fun out of playing that game out of the ones that we’ve made. And yeah, I think we did a good job with that game. I’m really proud of that one. Yeah, I was happy with how it turned out with Sling Kong as well. I mean, we wouldn’t have been able to make Super Starfish if we didn’t make Sling Kong. So you know, it’s very, very hard to say. 

I was actually very, very surprised to hear that potentially, the next game that you want to develop is something that’s a departure from the previous games that you’ve designed. Is that something that we can discuss? 

Yeah. we can, we can discuss that. We’re not very secretive. Yeah, we like to talk about what we’re doing. So, basically, it’s a mowing game. Where you’re essentially going lawn by lawn through kind of a small country town, and just mowing lawns. And that’s it.

What was the inspiration for this game?

This one came about a little differently. And it’s evolved since we first started making it. I remember someone describing once making games is kind of like, imagine you have a whole heap of jigsaw puzzle pieces, right? And you throw them up in the air. And for some reason you’re on like, some low gravity place, like on the moon or something like that. So the pieces fall really slowly. And if, before they hit the ground, you’ve got to kind of put together the best picture that you can. By the time these puzzle pieces hit the ground, that’s kind of the game that you’ve got. 

So sometimes you think in your head, I know exactly what I want this game to be. But, as you’re making it, you discover things that are fun, and you discover things that are not fun. And you’ve got to adjust. Okay, right. Yeah, yeah. Something that was fun in your head before, maybe when you actually make it, you go, “Oh, actually, yeah, this isn’t as much fun as I thought it would be.” And then other things that you had no idea would be fun suddenly, like, hey, this part of the game is great. Maybe we should emphasise this part of the game more.

So that happened a little bit with this game. Originally, the inspiration or the idea was to create a really small game. That was kind of, let’s say, hyper casual. It’s a hyper casual game, which means like, basically, anyone can play this game.

Is that like an official term? Hyper casual? 

Yes, it is.

A lot of people are making hyper casual games. It’s like, maybe we can make a hyper casual game and we could make it in like a month or something like that. Usually, these games are really small in scope, and pretty quick to make. So we kind of came up with this idea of something that just felt satisfying to do. Something that feels satisfying to you is like – cleaning things feels satisfying. And also, we felt that mowing lawns feels satisfying. It feels good to start with something messy and when you leave it, it’s nice. So yeah, we started creating this game. We’ve been kind of supporting Sling Kong and Super Starfish this whole time. So it’s kind of taken a lot longer than we hoped originally. So I think now it’s been in development for about a year. 

And it’s beta testing soon, though. 

Yeah, really soon.

So what happens after the beta testing? How do you decide when it is ready for actual launch?

That’s a great question. So I don’t know exactly what we’re going to do. After we do the beta test, we’ll have a look at it. And we’ll have some idea of whether or not it’s gonna do badly or well. Hopefully, it looks good. And people like it. 

If it looks bad, we may have a bit of an attempt to fix some of the problems that we find. If people think that it’s, I don’t know, it could, it could be anything, it could be so many different things that people like or don’t like about it. But we will probably try and fix some of the things that are hopefully easy to fix. And then try to launch it. Maybe about a month after that we’ll spend like a month trying to improve it. Or if it looks good, then we’ll just release it and see how it goes.

Cool. I am looking forward to seeing how this ‘anybody can play’ game works out.

Yeah, me too. Very curious about this one.

Was there any significance for picking your company name – Protostar?

Yeah, yeah, kind of we did. You know, when we started the company, it was we weren’t, we didn’t want to spend too long setting it up, right? Because we wanted to just like, let’s just start making games. But we spent one week filling out all the forms you need to fill out to start a business with the government and everything like that. And at the same time, we needed to come up with a name before we could register a business. So we had to come up with the name Protostar. And that logo and everything. The name. Yeah, so Protostar is like a celestial thing. So basically, as a protostar it’s kind of like before a star becomes a star. It’s a protostar. 

We like the word proto, because of prototype, and we like making prototypes and kind of doing something different and trying things out. We really like trying things out and seeing how it goes. We thought we’re starting something new. Like, yeah, a star. Proto-star is kind of a new star. That’s just forming. It just felt right. 

Yeah it feels very kind of, like kind of positive and, and like there’s like, a big unknown, but it’s very optimistic.

Yes, yeah. To be discovered. Yeah, that’s right.

So we’re kind of coming towards the end of our chat. What has been the most rewarding taking a somewhat different path from probably what you might have imagined yourself to have taken as a student.

Yeah, that’s a tough question. I’ve always felt kind of lucky, being able to work a job where I’m doing what I love. I’ve always been really happy about that. And sometimes there’s kind of a lot of pressure. Especially I think that you put on yourself when you’re doing something that you love, and that you want to be, you know, as good as it can be. So sometimes it can be really stressful, but it’s on those days where I’m doing something, like making a new prototype, or like, sort of like, really in that creative zone. Those days go so fast. Like I blink, and they’re over.

But, you know, if I’m working on a project, and we’re near the end of the project, and we’re just trying to get everything wrapped up, like cross all the T’s and dot all the I’s, those days can take a long time. 

Do you let your kids play your games? Do they like playing your games?

Yeah, yeah, they play them. Yeah. They like them. They have iPads. They had to get them for school, actually, as schoolwork requires that they have iPads. I’m not sure if that’s a good idea or not, but that’s how it is. They get a little bit of screen time, each day. And sometimes it’s really nice if they do choose to play one of the games that I’ve made, usually they don’t. Usually, they’ll do something else. But sometimes they do choose it. And when I do see them do that. Yeah, it feels nice. Cool.

All photos from Protostar Games website or social media pages.
Date of chat: 10 December, 2019 over video conferencing.

Where My Heart Leads – Food for thought:

• How do you learn from your projects and improve the next time? Like the potter who keeps making new pots?
• Have you created a team with each member riding on their strengths?

---

You might be interested also:

Mindset: Tortoise and Hare in Practice

In a breezy corner of a mall-slash-hall, 20-30 seat-long rows arched before the stage. Neighborhood folks came in their homewear, kids and sometimes grandparents in tow. When they advertised this as a community screening, it truly was a community screening. A little girl climbed up on stage to play during the screening, yet nobody was too fussed to haul her off. The film continued to roll, the little girl played for a bit and climbed down of her own accord eventually.

I was surprised by the large turnout for a niche film, in Malay. It drew a large crowd of at least a hundred. REDHA, based on a true story, enraptured the audience as it tells the gripping, yet moving journey about a family rising above the harsh realities of raising a child with Autism. Thanks to superb acting, I couldn’t be sure if the boy who plays the main character was autistic or if he was acting. Turns out the young actors Harith Haziq and Izzy Zulkhazreef shadowed autistic children to help them get into their roles. They did an excellent job.

Film festival raise awareness on inclusiveness

My previous ‘encounter’ with autism had been from Mark Haddon’s book, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. The book, popular even among young tweens takes a light-hearted peek into the mind of an autistic boy named Christopher. Diagrams and drawings line the pages as we follow Christopher in all his quirks and thinking: counting traffic lights, carefully avoiding stepping on lines. 

However, it wasn’t until watching REDHA that I became aware of the severity of some cases of autism.

As we don’t often interact with people outside our usual circles or get to understand their stories and differences. The MINDS Film Festival brings awareness to help support persons with intellectual disabilities and those diagnosed with autism.

The seven film selection were impressive, hailing from countries both East and West, tells diverse stories. From Korea hails Innocent Witness (2019) a detective story; from Italy: My Brother Chases Dinosaurs (2019) about brotherly bond; and even from Hong Kong: Distinction 非同凡響 (2018) on unexpected journeys. Refer here for the full program: https://www.singaporefilmsociety.com/event/mff2020/

These film screenings are a great way to promote understanding whilst help eliminate discrimination through an entertaining medium.

In lieu of clapping

A clip of a graduating class has been circulating on social media. The principal of the highschool asked the graduating class to not clap so their classmate, who is sensitive to loud noise, can receive his diploma. See what happened here:

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/video/graduation-ceremony-silent-student-autism-accepts-diploma-64249024

What’s in the name

REDHA means to accept everything that has happened wholeheartedly and sincerely (because that is His will). An Islamic term that is explored philosophically and spiritually.

Food for Thought

• There is always a silver lining (Silver Linings Playbook: Another favorite film of mine, which btw, goes with the theme of the MINDS Film Festival). What had growth and opportunities did you gain from overcoming the challenges you’ve faced?